Hi everyone,

For a few years I owned an Ascaso espresso machine and grinder, and utterly failed to make good coffee with it. In the end I got demotivated and took a long hiatus from espresso. During the pandemic my spark was relit and I invested in a DF64, SSP Lab Sweet burrs and a Cafelat Robot. And wow, I've been amazed by the shots coming out of this thing. However, I'm not too fond of the workflow and struggle with lighter roasts, even when preheating the portafilter. So now I've caught a classic case of the "upgraditis"!

After my good experience with the Robot I'm biased towards lever machines. Some kind of pressure/flow profiling capability is a must, otherwise it would feel like a downgrade to me. I rarely make milk drinks and own an external foamer, so steam capacity is more a bonus than requirement. I've been happy with my grinder setup so not looking to upgrade there (I think).

I live in Europe and the budget I'm willing to spend is 2-2.5k euros. My expectation is that any of these machines would last me 10+ years with enough maintenance. My shortlist of machines is:

Profitec 800 (2022)
Bezzera Strega
Lelit Bianca (V3)
Strietman CT2

The 800 and Strega seem roughly equivalent to me, so would appreciate advice on the differences (if any). The Bianca's flow profiling seem very capable for this price range. So it could possibly scratch the same itch as the levers.

Lastly the CT2 is appealing due to low maintenance and good temperature stability. I also think I would enjoy a direct lever. There I'm mostly worried about the small boiler size if I want to do many shots back-to-back. And a slight feeling that I'm overpaying compared to the capabilities of the other machines.

Appreciate all advice, thanks!

I can't help with your main question since I'm in the same boat, but have you tried pouring water into the piston to preheat? I find it the easiest method and it works really well for me.

The only upgrades I've considered are the decent for the contrast, or something commercial if I'm regularly making many drinks.

I'd probably narrow it down to wanting a lever or not first. Hard to compare the Bianca to lever machines. Bianca V3 is an excellent machine but it won't scratch the lever itch.

Miltonedgebert wrote:I can't help with your main question since I'm in the same boat, but have you tried pouring water into the piston to preheat? I find it the easiest method and it works really well for me.

The only upgrades I've considered are the decent for the contrast, or something commercial if I'm regularly making many drinks.

I've tried both doing a "double pour" into the brew chamber and letting the portafilter/basket heat up on the steam from a kettle, but feel like I'm not getting it right. Maybe I'm doing something else wrong.

Milligan wrote:I'd probably narrow it down to wanting a lever or not first. Hard to compare the Bianca to lever machines. Bianca V3 is an excellent machine but it won't scratch the lever itch.

You're probably right that I should zoom in on one machine type. I do enjoy the experience of a lever shot and have enough counter space, so I could narrow it down to 800, Strega and CT2.

When filled, the ct2 can pull 5 back to back shots easily. It also excels with lighter roast but I found I needed to preinfuse for 1.5-2 mins. Everything under 1.5mins came out sour while around 2 min mark was bright. Also had to use the smaller basket for all lighter roast to increase extraction ratio. I am looking to replace it with the meticulous once that is out. Also had robot prior to the strietman. Feel free to ask any questions I may be able to answer.

Corgo wrote:I am looking to replace it with the meticulous once that is out. Also had robot prior to the strietman. Feel free to ask any questions I may be able to answer.

How come you want to replace it with a Meticulous? Do you find it hard to pull consistent shots? I'm pondering getting the Gabor gauge kit if I get a CT2 for this reason. Both Meticulous and OE Argos looks interesting but I'd like to buy a proven product, so these are off the table for now.

JuhlaMokka wrote:I've tried both doing a "double pour" into the brew chamber and letting the portafilter/basket heat up on the steam from a kettle, but feel like I'm not getting it right. Maybe I'm doing something else wrong.

What I do is lift the arms and pour boiling water into the top of the piston. It sounds awkward, but it's really smooth. I can take some pictures when I get home. I've not noticed heating the basket/portafilter alone to make a ton of difference.

JuhlaMokka wrote:... The 800 and Strega seem roughly equivalent to me, so would appreciate advice on the differences (if any). ...

The groups are different - Bezzera group vs. Modern lever group.
The group heating systems are different - electric vs. boiler connection.
The water delivery systems are different - HX vs. dipper.
The pre-infusion delivery is different - pump vs. boiler pressure
They're different in almost every feature that relates to the taste of the espresso ... but they are astonishingly identical in terms of metalwork and component build quality .

Which one is better? Well, people with a Strega will say that the Strega is better, people with the Pro 800 will say that the Pro 800 is better, people with a Londinium will say that a Londinium is better than both, people with an ACS Leva will say that the ACS is better than those three, people with a LSM group will say that it is the best group, people with a Lambro will say that there has been nothing better since 1959 ... <- note smiley; I'm kidding.

JuhlaMokka wrote:Lastly the CT2 is appealing due to low maintenance and good temperature stability. I also think I would enjoy a direct lever. There I'm mostly worried about the small boiler size if I want to do many shots back-to-back. And a slight feeling that I'm overpaying compared to the capabilities of the other machines.

The CT2 doesn't steam milk, but I guess that is not a current concern - but something to keep in mind for the future. It is a manual lever like the Robot so if you enjoy the feel of pulling downwards during/controlling extraction, then the CT2 is for you (or a Pavoni or a Cremina). My feeling is that you are not "overpaying" for a CT2 - you are just paying for different things, some of them intangible.

baldheadracing wrote:They're different in almost every feature that relates to the taste of the espresso ... but they are astonishingly identical in terms of metalwork and component build quality .

Looks like I haven't done my homework I'm still struggling to understand how these parameters affect the brewing process, so that sounds like a good pointer for me to research.

Moving up another tier to the likes of Cremina, Londinium and Leva is an option in theory, but so far I haven't been convinced it's worth the extra cash. Seems like we quickly get into diminishing returns.

Some would say that you are already at the point of diminishing returns with the Robot - at least in terms of taste.

As you've already eliminated the Bianca, perhaps next decide between a manual lever and a spring lever? I have found that they offer very different experiences.