Versalab M3 vs. Others

#1: Post by **sarends** » February 11th, 2016, 12:17 pm

There doesn't appear to be a general thread for new or recent Versalab M3 owners - am I mistaken?

I am looking into an espresso grinder - single dosing, espresso only. Ones I have, or am, considering: EK43, Mythos, Compak, VL M3

I recently made inquiry of Versalab re. a couple of my concerns having read threads here that are about three years old - I can't find much recent.

Per Versalab many of the problems have been remedied or mostly remedied. Any thoughts on this from recent purchasers?

Here is what I heard from recent emails to Versalab re. the M3 grinder after I questioned: 1) belt slippage using light roasts 2) alignment issues - difficulty aligning 3) bending shaft or shaft wobble:

Hi Steve,

Thank you so much for you interest.

You will probably notice that most concerns date from years ago. In 2005, when the M3 first came out, the popularity of very light roasts was only just starting. These roasts are much harder and resulted in some belt slippage. Adding knurling to the small pulley took care of the problem.

Note in addition several things about belt slippage -- the design is intentional that the belt should slip if a stone or similar is encountered in the beans, this saves the motor. Secondly, when the belt is dirty or getting old, it also tends to slip at times. Keep the belt clean with an occasional wipe with isopropyl alcohol; replace when getting old every couple of years or so. (Price is $45.)

The stainless shaft cannot bend; what sometimes happened many years ago is that the alignment of the shaft in the bearings was imperfect. Improved manufacturing techniques have resolved this issue.

#2: Post by **FotonDrv** » February 12th, 2016, 7:43 pm

I understand the knurling but what did they do to the shaft and the alignment? Different bearings?

#3: Post by ds » February 12th, 2016, 8:22 pm

Its flawed design in my opinion. Long shaft with bearing on top without support bearing at the bottom simply will not work well.

First, due to shaft being that long any imperfections on the shaft itself will be magnified at the bottom of the shaft where burrs are. Nothing is perfect and shafts are built to certain tolerances, but the longer the shaft, the greater magnification at the bottom is. Shaft on M3 is not short at all...

Second, axial forces generated by grinding at the bottom of the shaft get amplified at the top of the shaft (think lever) which results in premature bearing wear and grinder getting out of alignment. Its not uncommon at all for this to happen within 6 months...

Both of these issues Terranova rectified by adding premium second bearing on top, which still does not solve the problem of the long shaft, but he corrects that by using premium materials and super high tolerances for the shaft itself. That's why his stuff is not cheap

in addition to crazy finishes and materials he uses. I love his stuff.

#4: Post by **AssafL** » February 12th, 2016, 8:42 pm

I don't buy the wobbly shaft theory. I buy the misaligned one but that is an easy fix. I don't have a recent model. I bought mine about 2009-2010.

It is not a perfect grinder but it remedied (for me) upgradetitis. That said I am getting a dr bean toothed belt.

I was speculating on the ek43 but lost interest when I noticed everyone was comparing Longos on EK (highEY but low EBF) to normales (or worse) on other grinders. Mythos is another which piqued my interest but didn't promise anything more.

I think that it is a crap shoot for what you'll get at this level.

#5: Post by **nickw** » February 12th, 2016, 8:56 pm

FotonDrv wrote:I understand the knurling but what did they do to the shaft and the alignment? Different bearings?

Any grinder which is capable of being aligned, will need to be aligned. This is true of Versalab, OE, LynWeber, or anything Frank makes. That's not knocking anyone, it's just a reality.

Re Bearings:
I'm guessing your speaking of the clearances? They could be using a tighter spec bearing now, I'm not sure.
Either way, imho, it's idealistic to think the shaft will fully center itself within its clearances. Having two bearings spread out, will lessen the runout which can occur at the bottom of the shaft. Which is why Frank adds a lower one (and uses tighter spec bearings). That being said, a stock aligned versalab can still be very very good. No doubts about that.

#6: Post by **nickw** » February 12th, 2016, 8:57 pm

ds wrote:Second, axial forces generated by grinding at the bottom of the shaft get amplified at the top of the shaft (think lever) which results in premature bearing wear and grinder getting out of alignment. Its not uncommon at all for this to happen within 6 months...

Bearings have clearances. The shaft will operate within them. Could it be better, yes (as I describe above). But, normal use is not going to cause the grinder to go out of alignment.

#7: Post by **nickw** » February 12th, 2016, 9:14 pm

AssafL wrote:It is not a perfect grinder but it remedied (for me) upgradetitis. That said I am getting a dr bean toothed belt.

Apparently with a good clean stock belt, the motor will stall slightly after slippage. So you may prefer to just keep using stock belts, and keeping them clean. Using an exposed belt, it also looks better too.

You also wanted a point of failure in the system. As if you don't design in a break point, something will break which you don't expect. In the Titus, I believe the motor is 3x stronger, but it also includes a thermal fuse.

AssafL wrote:I was speculating on the ek43 but lost interest when I noticed everyone was comparing Longos on EK (highEY but low EBF) to normales (or worse) on other grinders.

I can pull 1:2 shots with my EK. Both on the L1 and the Slayer.

The L1 with it's stock PI and pressure curve, it took a bit of practice, but not to bad.
18g in a 20g VST (because of headroom issues). Typical EY around 21-23% EY.

With the Slayer (18g in a 18g VST):
- At stock pressure (10bar on a blind basket - 9bar using a typical grinder), using the EK the coffee would see about 5.5 bar, and it would gush everywhere. 1:3 shots where the norm. In about 18seconds. Typical shots as you say.
- I lowered the pressure to 4bar (using blind basket) coffee sees about 3 bar. Can easily pull a 1:2 now, still fast in about 13 seconds. They taste good, very sweet, although less body. I'm going to do some more EY readings. Guessing they are around 23%.

#8: Post by **AssafL** » February 13th, 2016, 11:05 am

nickw wrote:Apparently with a good clean stock belt, the motor will stall slightly after slippage. So you may prefer to just keep using stock belts, and keeping them clean.

Agreed that it looks nicer. Mine doesn't stall. It slips when it does.

Interesting that it stalls for some: I tried the Bodine 0866 DC motor controller. It uses back emf to control RPM and regulates VERY WELL. Also - it doesn't slip. But using the 0866 the motor lacks power to grind... It actually stalls.

I have to figure out why. When I have time and will I'll use my Scopemeter to figure all this out.

- I lowered the pressure to 4bar (using blind basket) coffee sees about 3 bar. Can easily pull a 1:2 now, still fast in about 13 seconds. They taste good, very sweet, although less body. I'm going to do some more EY readings. Guessing they are around 23%.

I am even more stumped. Why is a 23% EY at 1:2 feeling less body than one at 21-23%? How does this compare to your aligned Versalab?

February 13th, 2016, 11:51 am

Nick, thanks for your detailed answers/analysis!

A couple questions:
1) With re. to Versalab as a company, if one had to give them a grade on customer support it seems they might get a "C" at best - fair? My worry if I went with an M3 is it would fail (stall, slip too much etc) and Versalab would either a) not support it or they would b) simply take so long to help out that I would end up sending it to Terranova anyway. This wouldn't be all bad (those with Terranova modded M3s seem really happy for the most part from what I can tell), but it seems odd going into a purchase not having much confidence in the manaufacturer. Seems counter-intuitive planning the purchase of an important item (a grinder is certainly a critical piece if not THE critical piece) when one's hope and trust is more in a supporting manufacturer (Terranova) than the original manufacturer (Versalab). I know I'm not really stating anything new here, just trying to get my thoughts out and open to critique if they are wrong or not well thought out.

nickw wrote:Apparently with a good clean stock belt, the motor will stall slightly after slippage. So you may prefer to just keep using stock belts, and keeping them clean. Using an exposed belt, it also looks better too. You are saying, if one just keeps the belt exposed,it is easier to observe and to clean more frequently and it looks good anyway, right?

You also wanted a point of failure in the system. As if you don't design in a break point, something will break which you don't expect. In the Titus, I believe the motor is 3x stronger, but it also includes a thermal fuse.

Your below findings using your EK with the L1 and the Slayer is very interesting to me, particularly as I am really just beginning to learn about all that goes into the variables of pulling good/great espresso shots! Being able to pull 1:2 shots with an EK is a good thing because: a) The mouth feel would be a little better than 1:3, right? b) The size of the resultant drink is a more typical/serve-able size, right? It is mind boggling to me (given my experience with the Forte and Quick Mill Lucca) to imagine a shot pulled in 13 seconds tasting good! Doesn't this seem crazy? Not doubting you at all, just seems really foreign compared to my setup. Reducing the Slayer's boiler pressure from 10bar to 4bar seems huge. But, if that is what the equation calls for and it works, so be it I guess. Espresso is coffee under pressure, the equation of how much pressure is open to adjustment depending upon the particular variables one is using, in this case, the EK's grinding profile seems to be wanting reduced pressure. The above is me thinking out loud - is this sounding right?

I can pull 1:2 shots with my EK. Both on the L1 and the Slayer.

The L1 with it's stock PI and pressure curve, it took a bit of practice, but not to bad.
18g in a 20g VST (because of headroom issues). Typical EY around 21-23% EY.

With the Slayer (18g in a 18g VST):
- At stock pressure (10bar on a blind basket - 9bar using a typical grinder), using the EK the coffee would see about 5.5 bar, and it would gush everywhere. 1:3 shots where the norm. In about 18seconds. Typical shots as you say. You mean "typical for an EK, right?
- I lowered the pressure to 4bar (using blind basket) coffee sees about 3 bar. Can easily pull a 1:2 now, still fast in about 13 seconds. They taste good, very sweet, although less body. I'm going to do some more EY readings. Guessing they are around 23%.

#10: Post by **AssafL** » February 13th, 2016, 12:20 pm

As for Versalab as a company, I wouldn't give them a C. I've contacted them when the portafilters holder didn't have enough tension to hold the LM PF (they corrected it by adding a second spring); to get spares (burrs & belts); and a replacement board to switch from 220v to 110v.

Over the past 6 years they've been adequately responsive to me.

Since the A+ spot is reserved for Bryston and LM, I guess that would put them at A- or B+.