homeburrero wrote:That is an informative thread on brew ratios. In there is a link to an authoritative Italian source - the The Certified Italian Espresso and Cappuccino from the INEL, which says that an espresso is 25 ± 2.5 ml (including froth) in the cup from 7 ± 0.5g of ground coffee. Doesn't define where it becomes a ristretto or lungo, but I guess you might can deduce from the plus/minus figures that less than 45ml (including froth) from 14g might be ristretto-ish by their standard. This is in line with what Seacoffee has been saying.

Yes this is the standard I work with. Most other figures are so variable as to be next to useless for my purposes anyway and as I say, I believe the Italian domestic lever machines were designed with this standard in mind.

Max, I think it is useful for you to persist with the single but instead of 7 grams I would use 8. This makes brings the level of the coffee grinds up a bit and over the first step in the basket for a better polishing tamp. Grind for a 25 sec shot and it will work out fine.

Just loaded with 14 grams, purged the wand after the release valve started hissing. Raised the lever up and down a number of times to clear air from the cylinder. Let some water through to the cup to warm both the cup and the group. Raised lever, locked just before water fills cylinder. Waited about 8 seconds, a few drips then one straight pull. Solid feel immediately letting you know there is no air and there is no sponginess. 25 seconds later 30 ml out including crema settled to a about 27 ml for an Italian Ristretto.

If one wanted more volume without extra lever pulls you could continue to saturate the puck more by much longer pre-infusion or by very small lever movement which just draw more water, which is pushed into the puck but without really pushing through the puck. This really saturates the puck and completely fills the cylinder and will achieve a greater volume. I will do that now for an experiment and see exactly how much more volume I can get out and then I will come back with a result. My europiccola is circa 1964ish

Ok, end result was 40 ml. What I did notice was that when I commenced the full pull, the lever was hard right from the outset. Not one bit of air so the whole cylinder was full and the puck saturated. Now the shot took about 3 seconds longer because of the larger volume.
When I do my normal shot with my normal 6 to 8 seconds of pre-infusion and no pre-infusion pumps, there is a short time before the lever get hard, indicating the cylinder is not totally full, but still no sign of sponginess.
One of the biggest variables is how full the cylinder is before you start the pull. I have found that lowering and raising the lever a number of times (4 or 5) after up to pressure eliminates the air. But I think this is the part we must pay more attention too to achieve consistency.

Hi All,

I finally got new coffee and could continue experimenting.

One issue that I'm wondering about it the puck getting pulled up into the group. I've googled/ searched the forum on this and haven't found all too much. This happens to me on every single pull. I can see the imprint of the screen on the puck, and the screen is always full of coffee after I remove the portafilter. When I flush water out after the shot, it is always dirty and has coffee powder in it. The puck definitely does not get sucked up when I raise the lever to let water in. I have gotten pretty good at avoiding making a vacuum there. I raise the lever enough to hear steam or a bit of water come out, lower it slightly so no water comes out and then lock in the portafilter before raising the lever all the way. I don't feel the "suction" that I felt before when I was just locking in the portafilter and then raising the lever all the way. Does anyone have an idea why and at what point it gets pulled up to the screen in the group?

Other than that, today I have only been adjusting the grind and trying to keep everything else constant. I want to make something drinkable and dial in the grind before moving on to correct other faults. Today I got a couple of drinkable shots, though they were far from good. On my last batch of coffee, every single shot had an awful taste. I think it was sour - though to be honest I couldn't really diagnose it with certainty.

I had very little crema today, which wasn't always the case with my first batch of beans. Also, though I get pretty good volume (30-33g for a single pull), I don't get much resistance until mid way in the pull. I think this could be the reason for little crema and I should do a few short moves of the lever after preinfusion to build up pressure.

My routine:

- turn on machine until light goes out
- grind and lightly tamp 7g of coffee for single basket
- purge steam wand
- let hot water through group/empty PF into cup
- raise lever to the point where water enters
- lower lever slightly to lock in PF with basket
- 10 seconds preinfusion
- 25 seconds shot, resulting in 30-33 g espresso

Enjoy your weekend
Max

7gr dose in single basket and 30-33gr espresso is roughly 1:4.5 brew ratio.
it should be considered lungo even in italy. For some coffees it can be good.
But from my experiences, It looks like a little more concentrated kind of drip coffee.

I think if you are looking for body and crema, 7gr in and 18-21gr beverage out should be better .
I suggest you to grind finer and try a little less volume in cup.

Seacoffee wrote:Ok, end result was 40 ml. What I did notice was that when I commenced the full pull, the lever was hard right from the outset. Not one bit of air so the whole cylinder was full and the puck saturated. Now the shot took about 3 seconds longer because of the larger volume.
When I do my normal shot with my normal 6 to 8 seconds of pre-infusion and no pre-infusion pumps, there is a short time before the lever get hard, indicating the cylinder is not totally full, but still no sign of sponginess.
One of the biggest variables is how full the cylinder is before you start the pull. I have found that lowering and raising the lever a number of times (4 or 5) after up to pressure eliminates the air. But I think this is the part we must pay more attention too to achieve consistency.

Its great to see new Pavoni users on. Been on a hiatus myself due to a variety of factors that pulled me away from coffee...hehe...had to drink some preground seattles best for 2 weeks actually...really keeps up the appreciation for homeroast, sometimes im too hard on myself...

But, I have skimmed through this thread and had to ask if I misunderstood. It sounds like your trying to purge air during the pull? It may be a gen1 and 3 thing, never really kept up on the differences as well as I should, but I imagine you read this thread: Bleeding Pressurestat lever machines. (Especially 2nd gen La Pavonis)

and this is also worth a look to understand force Pressure Profiling a La Pavoni

In your first thread you mentioned *despite having spent several hours* I guess you now know, but if not, it should be viewed as more of a long-term endeavor with the likes of a Pavoni. Beautiful, but its not going to be good consistently quickly.

FInal thoughts, once you know how your PStat is operating it probably wont matter as much. But, I added a pressure gauge to mine and it was the first major step in moving me toward success. It is definitly a critical piece of information to start out with.

In addition, I would say that the brew water is primarily dictated by the water going in to the group, and the temperature of the group. Thus, without either of those points obtainig reliable consistency will not be truly obtainable, and thus control over the shot will always be elusive. Though obviously there is much more to it than that, and it is able to be approximated without a gauge and with experience. Thus, read about adding a stainless steel wetted parts gauge.

I recently bought a brand new Europiccola with a Rancilio Rocky grinder. My coffee is from local roasters and was roasted 1-2 days before use.

I was never able to get better than thin crema from my LP when I paired it with a Rocky. Changing to a Pharos hand grinder from Orphan Espresso brought me oodles of crema and vastly improved the consistency of my shots.

Matt

Look guys it's just hot water and coffee haha