On my quest for the best possible brewed coffee at home, I got myself a Mahlkönig Vario W with the Ditting steel burrs. The Mahlkönig Vario W is identical to the Baratza Vario W AFAIK.
I got the Vario after a lot of research that yielded the conclusion that a Vario with Ditting burrs is probably the best grinder for home use. At least for me. A Bunnzilla would've been my first choice, but unfortunately it is almost impossible to get a Bunn grinder here in Germany.
I got the grinder ~ 10 months ago.
Unfortunately I was never really happy with it. Here's a short list of issues I've had:

1. Grind size distribution never seemed very good to me. At least not as good as I've hoped. Actually I doesn't look and feel and taste any better than the grind my Hario Mini Mill produces.
2. After ~ two months of use the internal scales broke.
3. After half a year of use the drive train broke.
4. Mahlkönig support has to be the worst I've ever encountered:
   
   • Mahlkönig never answered to my support requests.
   • However, they've got a note on their website about a partner that handles warranty claim.
   • So I contacted them, multiple times.
   • It took them three months to actually get back to me.
   • They finally managed to repair my Vario and I got it back two weeks ago.
5. Yesterday the drive train broke again!

I really don't get this. I just cleaned the grinder very thoroughly two days before it broke again. And I've not been able to find any evidence of a stone or something that might have blocked the burrs.

I just ordered the needed replacement parts to repair the Vario myself this time. But I'm not sure I really want to keep this thing. I mean, the grinder cost five times as much as my Graef CM 800, which I've used daily for two years without ever having a single problem.

So I'm going to repair the Vario. But I'm not sure what to do with it and I hope to get some recommendations here.

Here are my options, as I see them:

1. Keep the Vario and hope it does not break again as soon.
   
   • If I keep it, I wanna make sure the grind is as even as it should be.
   • Is there an easy way for me to determine if the grind size distribution is OK?
   • What are possible root causes for an uneven grind?
2. Sell the Vario and get another grinder.
   
   • I'm thinking about a Lido 3
     
     • It seems to be of very good build quality and because it is a manual grinder, there's not that much stuff that can break in it.
     • Also I can actually take it with me to brew coffee at the office. That is a huge plus!
     • How does it compare with other grinders (especially the Vario with Ditting burrs) for brew grinding? I don't mind the manual nature of it. All that counts to me is the grind quality.
   • Maybe something like the Fuji Royal R-220 or the Kalita Nice Cut?
   • A used Kenia/Guatemala + new Burrs?
   • What other grinders would you recommend to me?

Especially selling the Vario and getting a Lido 3 is very tempting to me. But I fear this will be a step backwards in grind quality.

Thank you for all your input!
Joe



Update You can find a picture of my Vario's grind here (click the image on the linked page for a bigger version):

I have Lido 3 and Hario slim and have been using both for espresso and french press. There is certainly considerable visual difference in consistency of the ground coffee, being much better with Lido. As about the taste; I can't say there is much of a difference using french press, as it's very forgiving preparation method, except that amount of fines is lower when using Lido, maybe about half or even 1/3, but there are still fines in the coffee with Lido; I suppose it can't be avoided with FP and it doesn't bother me much. As about espresso, difference in taste and crema is more significant; one really has to be very "enthusiastic" to experiment with espresso using Hario. Also, Lido is about 4x faster when grinding for espresso

I don't know how it compares to Baratzas, somehow I find hard to believe that there is no visual difference in how ground coffee looks like between even cheapest Baratza and Hario, as even turkish Sözen is better than Hario in almost every respect. However, when I was buying a new grinder, only alternative to Lido for me was Rocky. I eliminated Baratzas after checking the videos because I didn't like the sound of the motor which sounds like it has really hard time to grind and even the cheapest juicer has several times more powerful motor ... and I didn't like the construction of the Baratza grinders shown dismantled on some videos; Rocky looked much more convincing to me. But I wanted manual grinder so I decided for Lido instead for Rocky, as other manual alternatives were whether not available (Hausgrind) or too expensive (Rossa etc)

I also used Ditting in the nearby store a few times to grind the coffee and grinding quality of Lido is certainly much closer to it than to Hario

As about build quality, it is solid and looks like it will survive years of usage, having in mind that main chamber is plastic and can be damaged by falling to the floor and similar accidents, like most other equipment we are using in ordinary life. However, it's not entirely flawless. In my opinion, biggest problem with it is too big tolerance in the thread of adjustment rings, that can cause burrs rubbing even in drip range. Slight rubbing itself isn't a problem for metal burrs, but it means that cone is out of the center, so there is much bigger gap on the one side of the burr than on the other side, affecting the consistency. It looks like it's not a problem only with my particular grinder, as there is a thread about it on this forum. I "modded" mine with a piece of dental floss as I described in other thread (other solutions are teflon tape and similar things), which solved the problem. I suppose this problem is less evident with Lido 2, which has a thread 1 mm instead of 2 mm and is a bit cheaper. There are a few other things that could bear some improvement on this grinder, but not connected with grind quality

I have a Bunn grinder with Ditting burrs and LIDOs 1 and 2. All produce clean cups with flavors defined. For brewing with Clever Dripper or BraZen Brewer, the BunnDitting is best, but I use the LIDO 2 in the office every day and get a very satisfying brew.

vit wrote:[...] However, it's not entirely flawless. In my opinion, biggest problem with it is too big tolerance in the thread of adjustment rings, that can cause burrs rubbing even in drip range. Slight rubbing itself isn't a problem for metal burrs, but it means that cone is out of the center, so there is much bigger gap on the one side of the burr than on the other side, affecting the consistency. It looks like it's not a problem only with my particular grinder, as there is a thread about it on this forum.

I almost set my mind on selling the Vario and getting a Lido 3 (or maybe 2). Then I read the thread here on HB about the Lido 3 with all the users complaining about the burr rubbing. I wonder how much of a problem the 2 mm play can really be. I'm imagining grinding the last few beans in a "grinding session" where the beans are only on one side of the burrs. Wouldn't this promotean uneven grind?

drgary wrote:I have a Bunn grinder with Ditting burrs and LIDOs 1 and 2. All produce clean cups with flavors defined. For brewing with Clever Dripper or BraZen Brewer, the BunnDitting is best, but I use the LIDO 2 in the office every day and get a very satisfying brew.

The Lido 2 with the italian burrs seems to be the better option for me since, according to some user reports, seem to produce a more consistent grind than the new swiss burrs. Unfortunately, I can't find a european store that sells the Lido 2 with the italian burrs. They all come with the new swiss burrs.


Also I've uploaded a picture of the grind my Vario produced just last week (click the image to get a bigger version):
Any comments if this is what I should expect from the "Steel Vario" are appreciated!

Tried to approximately match your grind with Lido. It's Lavazza espresso blend with about 40% robusta, ground slightly finer than I use for FP. Hard to say is this actually better or worse; in any case, there are bigger and smaller particles and some fines and particle shape is different than on your photo



As about swiss burrs in Lido 2/3, I don't think there is something wrong with them. There are differences in design compared to italian burrs, so they probably perform slightly differently, but they are precisely made and do their job well. Problem is that lower bearing is inside lower regulation ring, which has some free play on the inner (male) thread on the body of the grinder. If you approximately hit the center of that free play when tightening the other ring, everything is ok and burrs don't rub in whole usable range (from turkish upwards). That free play isn't 2 mm, but probably something like 0.2 mm out of the center. Thread pitch is 2 mm, meaning one complete turn of regulating ring moves the inner burrs 2 mm along the axis, while in Lido 2, it's 1 mm. However, it seems that the free play of the ring can be successfully eliminated by winding some teflon tape (or dental floss in my case) around the threads. I wasn't happy that I had to do it, but I didn't like the other solution - making the setting with the grinder inverted, which usually does the job, but leaving some grounds from the grinder on the table and floor. Maybe this actually isn't a big problem, it's possible that it will self center during grinding if the ring isn't very tight, similar way like in Hario, but didn't want to rely on that with grinder that was considerably more expensive

vit wrote:Tried to approximately match your grind with Lido. It's Lavazza espresso blend with about 40% robusta, ground slightly finer than I use for FP. Hard to say is this actually better or worse; in any case, there are bigger and smaller particles and some fines and particle shape is different than on your photo

That looks a lot more consistent than what I get! I'm actually quite impressed by your picture.

As about swiss burrs in Lido 2/3, I don't think there is something wrong with them. There are differences in design compared to italian burrs, so they probably perform slightly differently, but they are precisely made and do their job well. Problem is that lower bearing is inside lower regulation ring, which has some free play on the inner (male) thread on the body of the grinder. If you approximately hit the center of that free play when tightening the other ring, everything is ok and burrs don't rub in whole usable range (from turkish upwards). That free play isn't 2 mm, but probably something like 0.2 mm out of the center. Thread pitch is 2 mm, meaning one complete turn of regulating ring moves the inner burrs 2 mm along the axis, while in Lido 2, it's 1 mm.

Thanks for the clarification.

However, it seems that the free play of the ring can be successfully eliminated by winding some teflon tape (or dental floss in my case) around the threads. I wasn't happy that I had to do it, but I didn't like the other solution - making the setting with the grinder inverted, which usually does the job, but leaving some grounds from the grinder on the table and floor. Maybe this actually isn't a big problem, it's possible that it will self center during grinding if the ring isn't very tight, similar way like in Hario, but didn't want to rely on that with grinder that was considerably more expensive

Speaking of grounds on the floor: How is the grind retention with the Lido 3?

Well, don't be overly impressed, it's still 200 EUR range grinder. Tried making a better photo, with grinder at the same setting (8 notches from blue marked "zero" or 11.5 from burr binding; one turn of the ring = 16 notches)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8Mw03 ... sp=sharing

To me, it looks like there is less fines than on your photo, however it also depends on the beans

As about grind retention, I was also a bit disappointed at the beginning (as I mentioned, there are a few other things that could bear some improvement). After grinding, some coffee remains at the thick plastic bar inside the regulation ring which supports the lower bearing; this item doesn't exist in Hario, Hausgrind, Rossa ....). When grinding for french press, it usually easily falls down into grounds jar. When grinding for espresso, other Italian espresso blend was a bit more problematic, so sometimes more than 1 g of coffee remained there. After initial disappointment (this was never a problem with Hario), I discovered the way how to deal with it - striking the jar vertically from below with a palm several times before unscrewing it and most of the remaining coffee falls down into the jar. The plastic jar seems to be quite durable and not in danger of cracking. Lido 2 has glass jar which is probably even stronger. That way, actual retention is in range 0.1-0.2 g or so, not much more than with Hario

vit wrote:Well, don't be overly impressed, it's still 200 EUR range grinder.

I'm impressed about the fact that the grinds your 200 € grinder produces look a lot more even than the ones my 500 € grinder produces

Tried making a better photo, with grinder at the same setting (8 notches from blue marked "zero" or 11.5 from burr binding; one turn of the ring = 16 notches)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8Mw03 ... sp=sharing

To me, it looks like there is less fines than on your photo, however it also depends on the beans

To me it looks like there are a lot less fines as well as a lot less boulders in your grinds.

I got the replacement parts for the Vario two days ago and already fixed the grinder. I'll try to take another picture of the grinding results to see if it looks better now.

As about grind retention, I was also a bit disappointed at the beginning (as I mentioned, there are a few other things that could bear some improvement). After grinding, some coffee remains at the thick plastic bar inside the regulation ring which supports the lower bearing; this item doesn't exist in Hario, Hausgrind, Rossa ....). When grinding for french press, it usually easily falls down into grounds jar. When grinding for espresso, other Italian espresso blend was a bit more problematic, so sometimes more than 1 g of coffee remained there. After initial disappointment (this was never a problem with Hario), I discovered the way how to deal with it - striking the jar vertically from below with a palm several times before unscrewing it and most of the remaining coffee falls down into the jar. The plastic jar seems to be quite durable and not in danger of cracking. Lido 2 has glass jar which is probably even stronger. That way, actual retention is in range 0.1-0.2 g or so, not much more than with Hario

Sounds good to me.

---

So I'm still unsure whether to

• keep the Vario
• get a Lido 3 (or 2) instead
• get something totally different, like a used Guatemala, a Kalita Nice Cut Mill or maybe a Fuji Royal R-220?

Any recommendation is appreciated.

Well, your particular Vario doesn't sound like a particularly good example - what with the drivetrain breaking twice

I found that my Vario w/steel burrs produced a better tasting cup than my Lido2 w/Italmill burrs or my Rosco w/Lido1/Hausgrind/Feldgrind burrs (both of which in turn produced better cups than the Vario w/ceramic burrs, HG one, Pharos, and Zass Panama). I only dialed in grinds for Aeropress (Tim Wendelboe brew method) and for cupping-like brewing (which gives me the same grind as an Espro Press - a bit finer than French Press). Please keep in mind that taste is subjective - the main difference was that I could get a sweetness in, say, an Ethiopian or Kenyan, that none of my other grinders was able to deliver to the same extent.

If you do keep your Vario, then FYI, I found that it is important that everything be extremely clean for installation/assembly. The upper burr mount has been identified as one area where a bit of coffee can hide and have no apparent effect upon installation of the upper burr, but that little bit of coffee will cant the upper burr relative to the lower burr. I used alcohol swabs to clean. In addition, if you have a dial indicator, then I'd suggest using it to determine the best mounting position for the burrs/burr mounts (the position that gives the least run-out, i.e., where the burr is 'flat-est').

Good luck!

baldheadracing wrote:Well, your particular Vario doesn't sound like a particularly good example - what with the drivetrain breaking twice

Don't forget that the scales also broke. That makes three failures in nine month

If you do keep your Vario, then FYI, I found that it is important that everything be extremely clean for installation/assembly. The upper burr mount has been identified as one area where a bit of coffee can hide and have no apparent effect upon installation of the upper burr, but that little bit of coffee will cant the upper burr relative to the lower burr. I used alcohol swabs to clean. In addition, if you have a dial indicator, then I'd suggest using it to determine the best mounting position for the burrs/burr mounts (the position that gives the least run-out, i.e., where the burr is 'flat-est').

Good luck!

Thank you!

Unfortunately I do not have a dial indicator. But I'll check the upper burr mount thoroughly tonight.