Let's clarify something George: you mentioned early on that you are roasting your own beans. You also mentioned later on that you were using a SO from Sweet Maria's, which would tend to confirm that you are roasting your own greens. Is this correct? The extraction in that video looks to me like a function of rushing a roast from first crack towards second, at least that is what happens to mine under those conditions....at any rate I have seen very similar results with poor roasts, whatever the exact reason. Or old or poorly roasted beans purchased elsewhere. Your total extraction time from the first drip to shutoff is 25 seconds. In any case, nothing about your technique or equipment seems to be responsible. Your grind is certainly fine enough, almost choking the machine as it takes almost 14 seconds for the first drip. It then begins to fall apart. I would be very surprised if it is not the beans. I'd obtain some decently fresh beans from any of the better roasters mentioned in these forums. You mentioned you had the same problem with beans from a local roaster but you want to be sure they too are well roasted and fresh. Your technique and equipment is more than capable of producing a great shot.

Alright, watched them both. Just fyi, both links go to the same video, I went into your channel and found the other. No worries.

Personally,

1)Good that you weigh the dose. You should definitely keep doing that. Make it the same everytime. If you're .1gr off, not the end of the world. .3gr difference is where you will see a noticeable change. Keep the dose consistent, SHOT TO SHOT. Not neccesarily coffee to coffee.

2)lose the container and fork method. Thats a Mazzer Mini-E right? Or is it a Super Jolly E? Either way, both are capable of grinding right into the portafilter, like in the second video. NOW. If you're getting clumping, you should use the WDT method. Its the easiest and quickest method to fix any distribution problems the grinder may be causing.(Honestly, its such a great method, that people with high end titan conicals use it too. I only recently stopped using it, and my grinder ownership has only been titan grinders. Obviously because im awesome )


Mainly...

Use more coffee. And grind coarser.

Try 18grams. OR, try an amount that, when tamped, is about even with the little ridge inside the basket. Should be about 18grams.

Set the grind, so that when the pump ramps up to full pressure and quiets down, you see the shot bead on the basket at the same time. Here is a video link to about the speed you want to shoot for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MleyZwkxUjI

Personally, I think you're both grinding to fine, and using too little coffee. If you want to keep the dose the same that you're currently using, thats fine, but still coarsen the grind a little bit. If you jump up to around 18grams, you'll need to go a little bit coarser still.

There may be some grinder breakin troubles at play as well... its hard to say currently. I would say, try out these suggestions, and come back and comment on your results.


These are just MY opinions, others may agree or disagree. Secondly, you own great equipment, you're using fresh coffee, and you're on HB. Dont get frustrated, you'll get there.

Regarding the comment that it could be also your coffee.

I dont disagree. It very well could be. Trying out a pound or two of a popular commercial espresso blend wouldnt be a bad idea. Though I still stand by what my first comments were, and I think you should try them out with the coffee you're currently using.

FYI- Redbird Coffee makes a very easy espresso blend for newbies. Redbird. It also happens to taste pretty good. And to tick the third box, pricewise, it is very much on the cheaper side of things. Klatch Roasting, House Blend. That would be another very simply blend to get good results with. Batdorf&Bronson Flying Goat, would be a third(and a little more complex, flavour wise, than the other two.)

Thank you everyone for taking the time to watch the videos and post responses. I agree with too fine and not enough but I have much worse channeling when I make it coarser but maybe I am going too coarse. Can anyone give me an idea on how much coarser to go on a Mazzer (I know it is not exactly the same from machine to machine), i.e. 1 little notch or 5 little notches? Is there any other thoughts in why I get more channeling when I make the grind more coarse?

I was using the bowl and fork because I was having so much problems with the Rocky but straight to the portafilter is working better with the Mazzer. I just have to figure out how to dose into the portafilter and weigh while I am filing it in.

As far as my roasting I am using a whirly-pop on a cast iron pan. I am getting constant first crack at 8-10 minutes and start of 2nd crack about 2 m minutes later.

I am going to increase my dose to 18 grams and grind coarser. If it looks like there is clumping (which has not so far) I am going to use the WDT technique. I am going to try to find some fresh recommended beans but in the mean time try these changes with my beans. Any other thoughts?

Again, thank you so much for taking the time to help, it significantly reduces my frustration!

I made the grind 3 small notches coarser (for those of you familiar with mazzer) and dosed 18 grams. It ran real fast with channeling. I went back 1 small notch finer with 18 grams. This looked like an appropriate rate but I did have what looked like a lot of channeling although this could be due to not being used to the faster rate. Tasted OK, defiantly not bad, machine was not up to temp but wanted to make the change now not in the AM with no caffeine on board. I'm going to research more on reducing channeling.

Personally I feel very strongly that up-dosing, even if it seems to improve your shot, is merely putting a bandage on a bigger problem. Changing the fineness of a grind and the corresponding dose should be used as a means of altering the taste profile of the shot; it should not be necessary to do so just to pull a decent shot. In every machine and grinder I have used ( yes, even the over-maligned Rocky) and as long as well roasted, fresh beans are used, I have had no problem pulling a proper shot with 12,14, 16, 18 etc., grams of coffee....it's just a matter of getting the grind matched to the dose and ensuring good distribution in the basket. Stick with using WDT until you get this sorted out. The headroom necessary varies by machine and can be optimized by using various baskets but getting a decent shot even with less than ideal headroom should not ruin an otherwise well prepped shot....if it does then something else is not idealized. Go easy when you tap the portafilter after grinding because that can fracture the compacted coffee resulting in channeling. So can too much or improperly applied tamping pressure....go lighter...channeling is more often a problem of too much tamping pressure than not enough. It is natural to think that you can eliminate the channels in the puck by tamping harder...nope.

There is often a tendency to overthink and over complicate things in these forums. One doesn't need a Slayer, a K10 and a week studying with a Heather Perry just to pull a competent basic shot, but ya gotta have well roasted fresh beans man, ya gotta have good beans. I have done 47 roasts in the past 30 days and have dialed in and pulled shots from 42 of them. With every pull I make a point of watching the extraction with a naked portafilter. It tells me a lot about how I roasted even without tasting. I find it a fair bit more difficult getting an excellent extraction, every time, from my home roasted beans than from fresh beans from a top notch professional craft roaster. It's well worth the expense to you to buy 12 ounces if it helps eliminate the beans as a potential contributing cause.

I agree that that you should be able to pull a shot at whatever dose you want, just match the grind properly. But, I also want to mention, my experience with a handful of E61 machines, is that there IS a point where the dose is too low and the shot just falls apart. Varies depending on the basket, and the resulting headspace.

Reason I suggested it, is the 15.5grams he was using in the video, tamped, was way below the ridge in the basket. There is of course some flexibility to this, but getting the tamped puck to somewhat match up to the ridge inside the basket is not a bad rule of thumb.


OP-

Grind adjustment is minute on a mazzer. Going from 15 to 18grams and keeping the same flowrate, MIGHT be a notch and half. What I used to do on Mazzers, was take 5 or 6 different colored sharpie markers, and color the valleys on the adjustment in my usual range. Remember, the grinder is stepless, you can make the tinyest adjustment you want, it doesnt need to go by how many notchs or ridges.(Ridges, valleys.. idk what to call them. Impression/depression..)

Its ok if it takes a couple tries to dial in a new dose. As you get more familiar with your gear, you'll get better at estimating what kind of change you need to make. See if you can get the shot running without channeling(by using the WDT method) at 18grams. Maybe post a video of your best attempt.

I just had time to review the Mazzer video. Here are my suggestions:

1. Try to remove the basket from the PF, if you need to, remove the spring retaining clip. This will let you dry the basket completely and not be worried about doing that so quickly after a flush. Optional here, but I like this lazy approach to not rush as much.
2. Your moving the basket around good, but try tilting it a bit more and making sure the first grinds really get into basket corners. You don't seem to have donut extraction problems, but I find this can always help.
3. After you swept the top of the basket, I saw you shake the PF to settle grinds, try avoiding this step
4. Tapping PF to again settle grinds...again try to avoid.

The above should give you a better flow, with the same grind. Some machines do well with very restricted flows, but E61 I think like it a bit more relaxed. As you mentioned, if you grind more coarse you just get a channeled mess, so try to keep the same grind and see if the above gives you a better result.

If the above doesn't work, try to dose from your grinder into a cup. Mix up the grinds, then use a spoon to dose into your basket. See how that works out. If it works, maybe your grinder has some static issues and the fines are migrating too much to one area. I think this could be typical of Mazzer doserless, or just new burrs in general. Once it seasons in you may find you can dose directly into the basket from your grinder.