Hi,

I've been making home espresso for about 6-7 years. I've so far dosed by filling the basket so that I can swipe off a small excess to level the coffee with the rim of the basket before tamping.

My shots have been mostly okay tasting, but since I make cappuccinos/lattes most of the time and never really gotten into espresso drinking and tasting, I haven't paid that much attention to the actual taste of the espresso.

However, I have noticed that sometimes the cappuccino tastes better than other times. So to get better consistency, I got a small pocket scale with 0.01 gram accuracy. To my surprise, when I dose according to the specification of the basket (14g for the standard double, 18g for the VST I mostly use), the basket isn't anywhere near full. Not even the hump in the middle of the dose is above the rim. To fill the VST, so I can level the dose with my finger, I have to dose about 25g, 7 grams more than the specification.

In the standard double, if I dose 12g (after reading the Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste post), I even bottom out the portafilter during the tamp, so the tamper stops where the basket narrows near the bottom. (I tamp 15 kgs using a Click Mat from Espresso Gear which I calibrate regularly using my bathroom scale).

So what's wrong? In the introduction video series, he uses the same method I've been using to dose, and earlier in the series when he uses a scale, he says to dose 16.5 to 17 grams. Is my Rocky grinder grinding that much more compact? Or are the coffees I use that much heavier compared to other coffees? I use fresh espresso beans from Tim Wendelboe, who likes to roast pretty light. And in his own Norwegian video series ("How to Make the World's Best Coffee"), he also doses the same way, by finger leveling. I've compared my pocket scale with my regular kitchen scale with various objects, and it seems spot on. I've also calibrated the pocket scale with the included 100g calibration weight.

I weigh the coffee both before and after the grinding, since I keep the beans in the sealed bag and just single dose into the hopper.

If my shots taste good (that's the most important thing, right?), well, occasionally they do, but sometimes really bad too. They don't seem to taste that much different after bringing down the dose, I just get less espresso in the cup before it starts to blonde.

There's also one thing I don't understand in the Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste post: It says to dose to get a shot that weighs 20-25g in 30 seconds, and further down it says a double is about 35g and should take about 27 seconds. So why dial in the grinder for a shot that's really a ristretto? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

audunth wrote:To my surprise, when I dose according to the specification of the basket (14g for the standard double, 18g for the VST I mostly use), the basket isn't anywhere near full. Not even the hump in the middle of the dose is above the rim. To fill the VST, so I can level the dose with my finger, I have to dose about 25g, 7 grams more than the specification.

Hi there,

VST baskets are designed for a specific dose. If it's an 18g basket, you can't stray much from that amount - so use 18g. And, yes, once you tamp the coffee, the basket will not be full. That is ok, actually....that's how it's designed.

Since you have a scale, I would recommend consistently dosing your 18g VST basket with 18g of coffee. Then dial-in the right grind, for an 18g dose, to get the appropriate flow-rate and output.

Although, since you have a Rocky, which has wide steps, I'm not sure if you can make fine enough adjustments to the grind, without adjusting the dose. That's one problem people report with the Rocky and why it's no longer recommended for espresso. Yes, it can grind fine enough to choke a machine, however the steps are too wide to fine-tune once you get close.

I might be new here but I have been on Aussie forums for years and the same sort of question gets asked over and over again without a simple answer. The confusion is basically you either dose by weight or dose by volume but you can't dose both ways at the same time. If you dose by volume, by passing the coin or rice test, then you aren't following the specifications of the basket and you have to grind coarser. If you dose by weight you generally fail the coin test, have a wetter puck and you have to grind finer. The other confusing factor are all the specifications quoted eg brew ratio etc and all the dosing techniques including stockleth, wdt, chicago chops, dosing tools, schaub etc etc.

I dose by volume, that is, to just clear the screen after tamping. I posted earlier that I get a whopping 14gms out of my VBM single basket and sometimes 16gms out of my VST single basket which is rated at 7gms. The VST people would be horrified to read this but do I care? Do my shots taste good? Do my pours look good? Am I still getting about 25 to 30 mls in 25 to 30 seconds? Is my brew ratio strange? Yes to all. I tried dosing by weight but it took me longer to pull a shot, was more fiddly, wetter pucks and more importantly I didn't enjoy what was in the cup. I also like to keep it a simple as possible. All I do now is dose and tamp. That's all! I have a macap m4d grinder and I have set it to deliver the exact volume I'm after and my shots are great and my friends love coming around for a free coffee. I know some machines and beans are more tolerant of this method and some aren't.

So what's the answer. You have to decide first whether to dose by weight or volume and the way to decide that is by taste and trial and error. Buy a kilogram, sorry 2lbs of fresh beans and dose by volume by levelling or eyeballing and dial that in to get a good shot. Taste it and repeat. Now get your scales out and dose by weight following the specifications of your basket. Dial that in, taste it and repeat. Whatever tastes better is the way you should go and don't be too hung up on breaking "rules".

In my 20g VST basket, 20g of grinds pretty much perfectly fills the basket. I scrape off maybe a tenth or two of a gram, which is about the variation in my dose by weight.

audunth wrote:I have noticed that sometimes the cappuccino tastes better than other times. So to get better consistency, I got a small pocket scale with 0.01 gram accuracy. To my surprise, when I dose according to the specification of the basket (14g for the standard double, 18g for the VST I mostly use), the basket isn't anywhere near full. Not even the hump in the middle of the dose is above the rim. To fill the VST, so I can level the dose with my finger, I have to dose about 25g, 7 grams more than the specification.

In the standard double, if I dose 12g (after reading the Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste post), I even bottom out the portafilter during the tamp, so the tamper stops where the basket narrows near the bottom. (I tamp 15 kgs using a Click Mat from Espresso Gear which I calibrate regularly using my bathroom scale).

So what's wrong? ...

I use fresh espresso beans from Tim Wendelboe, who likes to roast pretty light.

If my shots taste good (that's the most important thing, right?), well, occasionally they do, but sometimes really bad too. They don't seem to taste that much different after bringing down the dose, I just get less espresso in the cup before it starts to blonde.

There's also one thing I don't understand in the Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste post: It says to dose to get a shot that weighs 20-25g in 30 seconds, and further down it says a double is about 35g and should take about 27 seconds. So why dial in the grinder for a shot that's really a ristretto? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

I see lots of focus on numbers but not much calibrating by taste, which is the main point of the Espresso 101 thread. However calibrating by taste may not be possible with your Rocky grinder, especially if the burrs are dulled by seven years of use. Also are your brew temperatures consistent? A couple of degrees difference can change the taste entirely.

I've tasted Tim Wendelboe's coffees a couple of times, and he's top notch. There's nothing wrong with your coffee if it's fresh. How long do you let it rest before use? Lighter roasts need time to degas and develop. Do you let it stale or do you store it in the freezer, airtight, at peak development?

I haven't used VST baskets, but let's assume they're way more sensitive to dose. Maybe it's time to get at least a Mazzer Super Jolly or something like it. Once you get a quality grinder within range, try varying the dose by a gram or two to change flow rate (increments may be smaller with VST baskets). Your pours and their taste will be adjusted according to that small variation in dose. Jim Schulman suggested this method of getting the grinder in range and then adjusting dose awhile back, although he wasn't referring specifically to VST baskets.

Exordium01 wrote:In my 20g VST basket, 20g of grinds pretty much perfectly fills the basket. I scrape off maybe a tenth or two of a gram, which is about the variation in my dose by weight.

That's probably what the VST people want you to dose and yet I use about 20gms in the VST 15gm basket, dosing by volume. I haven't got a 20gm VST basket but I'm sure I'd get over 25gms. Each to their own. Coffee making is an art and a science. Sometimes we focus too much on the science.

Any overdose of VST baskets usually results in a very uneven pour from naked P/F in my experience. Lots of channeling and a very uneven looking extraction.

You should post up a video of a shot or 2 so everyone can see 20g in 15g basket.

i feel there are a couple of things at play...

1) different grinders produce different volumes of grinds even if you somehow keep the dose and extraction constant (grams in, seconds in, grams out). this is likely due to burr size and geometry and motor speed, among other things.

2) espresso machines' ideal headspaces vary widely. that is not to say that you need to follow the manufacturer's intentions regarding the headspace in order to pull an excellent shot.

correct?

Absolutely correct.

The "expert" that sold me my VBM domobar said they were very forgiving on updosing. Other machines may not be as tolerant.