Better and better doubles on a Silvia PID

Beginner and pro baristas share tips and tricks for making espresso.
global_dev
Posts: 17
Joined: 10 years ago

#1: Post by global_dev »

Hey folks,

New here to post, but lurked for quite a bit. I've spent the last month trying to improve my results and I've hit some plateaus over that period and also made great improvements.

First off, I love coffee and had some great coffee success with drip, vac, pour over, and areopress (and shhh... even nespresso) but I wanted to up my game. Even roast my own with a gene cafe and SM greens.

Grabbed a used rancilio Silvia v2 with a PID and started with a capresso infinity using three different retail, non fresh beans and my own fresh. It was obvious that fresher beans made all the difference, but I had low to moderate success with the retail, but it was difficult as the grinder and bean combos were very difficult to dial in.. My first issue was redial issues because of that.. Throughout this period, I knew my grinder was iffy, and knew that was a serious issue, so based on my needs/wants I procured an hg1 grinder.

I used the not so great beans to season the burrs and play around, knowing full well that while it was fun to try to see dose vs grind vs bean age and volume, it was not gonna great me what I wanted, but it was interesting and had a couple drinkable shots certainly no worse that I have experienced elsewhere...

Having never had freshly roasted retail beans, I ordered some stumptown blends to see how my roasts compared and was pleasantly surprised. Up until today, I have been weighing beans and grinder output, but using time and volume at the Silvia aiming for around 25secs and 30mls as my goals. Volume grinding didn't seem to work, but maybe I was doing it wrong. I tried coarser and finer, but it always appeared negative on the pull. I've read and reread the brew charts here and finally decided to weigh the output brew as a goal and certainly had my eyes opened and not sure what to think. The output was delicious.. Which I think should be the goal, but perhaps I could improve something.

I've been using stumptown holler mtn about 5 days old with the older double basket with 13.5grams. So today, for output, after I pulled about 2 by volume, I pulled 2 by weight.. Significant volume differences when I hit about 27gr shots.

Nice lingering crema, nice mouth feel, nice taste, my question now is should I aim to align time, volume, and weight? If so, should I start with grind or dose changes? Updosing without the grind change seems to be a negative for this basket. Updosing with coarser grind seems to negatively affect the mouthfeel and taste.

Btw, I have stumps hair bender, holler mtn and house blend to play with.. Once those are finished I don't plan to buy them again, just too expensive compared to what I think I output (self roasts) right now for my level of palate distinction.

Any help would be great.. I think I already am suffering from upgradeitis, but I am not going to make anymore moves for a bit until I have some more experience and have some level of consistency. That bit of time might not be very long though. :D

Thanks, Jon

global_dev (original poster)
Posts: 17
Joined: 10 years ago

#2: Post by global_dev (original poster) »

It always seems like you can find an answer after you've asked the question, because you didn't really know the question until after experience, so until I put pen to paper I hadn't remembered and considered the blonding point aspect to my question.

Basically I should kind of ignore volume for right now as the least representative of good pulls and concentrate on blonding and weight? And try to align those 2?

Anyone know what the older Silvia baskets are recommended dosage to? Should I be grinding coarser and upping dosage or should I break out the triple basket for any reason?

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boar_d_laze
Posts: 2058
Joined: 17 years ago

#3: Post by boar_d_laze »

Hi Jon,

Sounds like you're doing great on your own. I'm not sure if what I have to say will help you go farther faster than you would on your own. But you knew the job was dangerous when you took it.
I have been weighing ... decided to weigh the output 'brew
Keep on weighing. Volume is not really meaningful in terms of what you're trying to do.
I pulled about 2 by volume, I pulled 2 by weight.. Significant volume differences when I hit about 27gr shots.
Probably inconsistent distribution and puck building.
my question now is should I aim to align time, volume, and weight?
Yes. But, that's a lot of permutations -- all of which effect brew ratio and/or "degree of extraction" (under, over, or location in the ideal range). One of the most important permutations is "flow rate;" output weight divided by pull time. Another is "brew ratio;" weight of dose divided by weight of output (usually expressed as a percentage).

For instance, 13.5g in with 27g out, is a 50% brew ratio; squarely in the heart of normale. A pull time to the blond point in the mid 20secs represents a flow rate which is also in the normale ten ring.

Ristrettos are brewed at higher ratios (~100% - ~66%) than normales (~66% - ~40%), and lungos at lower ratios (~40% - ~25%). As a rule you want your ristrettos (higher brew ratio) to flow slower, and your lungos (lower brew ratio) to flow more quickly -- to the blond point.

The blond point is the color and apprearance of the stream. Colors ranges from various shades of tan, through white, and all the way to translucent.

There is no, single, precisely correct blond point for all espresso extractions. As a rule you want to cut ristrettos darker than normales, and normales darker than lungo. But in any case, you want to cut the shot before the stream goes to translucent because that means the espresso is over-extracted.

In the same way, there's seldom any "best" single extraction for a bean. Most people find have a preference for ristretto, normale, or lungo for just about any bean. For instance, I'm usually happiest with 66% - 60% brew ratio, pulled to the end of "tiger striping," in a time in the high 20s to low 30secs for a double shot.
Should I start with grind or dose changes?
Neither. You should start with flow rate.
Updosing without the grind change seems to be a negative for this basket. Updosing with coarser grind seems to negatively affect the mouthfeel and taste.
So stop with the updosing already -- at least with that basket.

The height of the coffee column in the basket, as well as the distance between the top of the puck and the bottom of the shower screen have a very strong influence on the final shot.

It sounds like you've found the very narrow sweet spot for dosing your particular basket. Because up and down dosing are important parts of the barista's arsenal of getting the best from any given bean, you may want to add different baskets to your quiver. I suggest adding ridged, VST 15g and 18g baskets (one of each), to your current collection of one.

VST, because VST baskets are very well made and consistent. If you decide, down the line, that you'd like another 18g (for instance) you can be assured that both will work exactly the same as the other. La Marzocco Strada baskets are the same thing as VST, but a little harder to find in the common sizes.

Ridged, because the ridge line is a very helpful reference to check the level of the top of the buck. Good leveling is essential to a good extraction.
I ... am suffering from upgradeitis, but I am not going to make anymore moves for a bit until I have some more experience and have some level of consistency.
At some level of machine incompetence, nearly all of the techniques you develop go towards overcoming the inherent shortcomings of the machine. While you can do consistently "good" shots with the Silvia + PID, you'll get more consistency and a better chance of excellence with the same level of technique from a better machine.

Rich
Drop a nickel in the pot Joe. Takin' it slow. Waiter, waiter, percolator

global_dev (original poster)
Posts: 17
Joined: 10 years ago

#4: Post by global_dev (original poster) »

Thanks for the comments and clarifications.

I think I am going to grind a bit finer, vary the dose and keep weighing the output while watching for the blonding.. I want a bit thicker ristretto style almost pull.

I feel like I want to pull shots after shots, but that's a bit too much caffeine to my mind. How many shots can one person really enjoy at a sitting?