Compak is going to release a new version of their Fresh grinders. Wait and get one of those, they are awesome.

I'm not quite sure Rich understood what I was saying/asking, but all in all it seems we're all in agreement that- if you want to keep beans in the hopper, which it sounds like you do, doserless is the way to go. If you want to weigh your beans ahead of time then the K-10 would be the better way to go.

If you have a hopper full of beans and time for a specific dose, then the final weight in the basket would depend on how much you swept out of the chute- if any. That's the part I'm not quite clear on. But if you're going this far do you really want a timer sitting on the counter next to the grinder anyways?

CoffeeRon wrote:I'm not quite sure Rich understood what I was saying/asking

Perhaps not.

If you want to keep beans in the hopper, which it sounds like you do, doserless is the way to go. If you want to weigh your beans ahead of time then the K-10 would be the better way to go.

+1, with the very minor linguistic quibble that "doserless" is a misleading term. On-demand, aka walk-up grinders do dose, and single dose (by time) at that. They just don't have mechanical, sweeping dosers mounted on their nose.

If you have a hopper full of beans and time for a specific dose, then the final weight in the basket would depend on how much you swept out of the chute- if any. That's the part I'm not quite clear on.

Sort of. The amount of grinds left in most on demand grinder chutes is negligible. The amount of grinds left in a particularly well designed on demand grinder chute is even less.

A couple of tenths of a gram (at most) won't make a difference in the cup. If you cut your shot by eye, a tiny variation in dose can't make a difference in the cup (which is more or less the idea behind using the "blond point"). At the current state of the art, no matter how accurately you dose, no matter which grinder you use, even with digitally controlled and extremely stable brew temps, even if you pull "volumetrically," etc., etc., there's inherent shot to shot inconsistency greater than the difference chute retention can make.

And if you don't go to ridiculous lengths to insure consistency, but cut by eye, use a merely excellent grinder, merely good machine, time dose, and do other "best shot" and/or techniques of convenience, there's even more inconsistency.

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall.

What's the point in jumping imaginary hurdles? Instead of making yourself nuts, just make great espresso. That ought to be enough.

Rich

Rich,
Nicely explained, thank you! I cut by eye once I'm awake in the morning

Ron

So I don't store my beans in the hopper at all. I 'portion' for 2 sets of shots at time in general. So for this, it seems from what everyone is saying, dosered.

Would a K10F or a Ceado work any differently than my current M4? That routine seems to work fine for me. In the end, if it operates the same, retains ~ same, then I know the answer. I would love to say I would wake up a few min earlier to make sure I do a sweep routine, but...I like sleep better :-/ Afternoons/evenings work on a different routine where I might be more ok with a longer routine.

Dburns wrote:So I don't store my beans in the hopper at all. I 'portion' for 2 sets of shots at time in general. So for this, it seems from what everyone is saying, dosered. Would a K10F or a Ceado work any differently than my current M4?

Anyone ever tell you that you've got a gift for asking innocent questions with hidden fangs?

Yes, an E92 or Fresh would probably work very differently for you. They both have accurate (and espensive) dosers as integral parts of their designs.

That may seem a little confusing because the English speaking coffee community has developed a confusing language based around the concepts of doser/doserless, and single dosing. An on-demand aka walk-up grinder does not have a mechanical, sweeping doser hanging from its nose, but it is built to single dose. That the single dosing is by time instead of weight, and is a great deal more convenient and less time consuming than single dosing by weight, makes it no less single dosing.

In the end, if it operates the same, retains ~ same, then I know the answer.

You can bend an on-demand grinder to your routine, but I think you'll find that you'll get more out of it if you use it the way it's meant to be used.

I would love to say I would wake up a few min earlier to make sure I do a sweep routine, but...I like sleep better

You've got it backwards. Time dosing an on-demand -- even with sweeping -- is considerably faster than single dosing a dosered grinder by weight. At least with the E92, you don't have to sweep at the beginning of a session (unless you've left the grinder unswept after your last) nor between shots, because chute retention is less than negligible.

The inconvenience -- such as it is -- with a hopper-loaded, on-demand grinder is weight variation per dose as the hopper nears empty. With about three or four ounces in the hopper, the doses will get lighter -- by as much as a gram from your dialed in dose. Not that the universe is inimically hostile to human aspiration or anything like that, but after two or three light shots, they'll get heavier and exceed the dialed-in dose by about the same amount.

You can adjust dose by time when you notice this occurring; but if you accept the facts that (1) good food preparation means tolerating minor variance; and (2) cut your pulls by blond point, then plus or minus 1g in dosing is not a problem that requires fixing.

To be clear, I'm trying to give you the facts. It might seem like it, but I'm not recommending the E92 over all others, because we're (you, me and everyone else) are not only unsure what you want, but your identified priorities of uber-Titan conical in the cup qualities, zero retention, and ease of use don't exist in the same grinder. Not the E92, not the Compak K10 F, not nothin'.

Just as with the typical client's demand of "fast, good, and cheap," you can get any two together, but not all three. Time to prioritize.

Rich

I think I have finally decided. I love my doserless now...but I think I may give up and get the K10 PB...found a good deal (now I have to decide to pull the trigger). All of this info has caused sensory overload.

Sorry to drag up an old thread, but I've been wondering about the Ceado grinder design. People seems to agree that it will take longer/be more difficult to single dose the Ceado than a K10 PB (or any dosered conical). I can't imagine any scenario where this is true, and I challenge anyone to explain.

Single Dosing (Let's narrow the convo to this)
1. Weight and drop the beans in (optional RDT) - same with either grinder.
2. Grind - straight into PF with the ceado, or into the doser with the Compak
3. Brush the chutes - no problem here with either. The Ceado chute is a bit larger, but the covered portion is about the same size as the K10. If RDT is used you may be able to skip this step with the Ceado, but I'm not certain. Ceado is done, tamp and pull.
4. Dose into PF from doser, brush dosing chamber (unless you have modified the doser to be clean). Compak is done, tamp and pull.

The way I see it, you skip one of the biggest steps with the Ceado. The main advantage over the K10 Fresh is IMHO, it has a much smaller and more accessible chute as well. Seems like a clear winner. Or am I wrong? The Ceado very much reminds me of a large vario or Pro-M in it's retention/single dosing capabilities. If you ignore the timer, it's a single dosing machine through and through.

I can't speak for the E92, but the main reason many doserless designs are regarded as unsuitable for single dosing is obstructions in the grind path like chute bends and screens that prevent thorough bumping and brushing. Also, many of them have portafilter forks that either don't hold a bottomless portafilter or else distribute grinds unevenly. The K10 PB is popular because of its previously inexpensive price relative to other titan conicals, as well as its straight and easy to brush grind path. With appropriate modifications to eliminate retention, the doser acts as a convenient ground coffee receptacle that automatically stirs and distributes the grinds.

You may also find that flat burr doserless grinders with their static screens removed have pretty low retention in general because the grind mechanism tends to fling the grinds out with more force than large conical burr designs. RDT makes a big difference here.