So, to the seasoned forum members still paying attention to this thread, I apologize for not being able to just let this slide. I'm totally having one of these moments: https://xkcd.com/386/

Gfcronus wrote:Big difference. I suppose if wine, spirits, cigars, and artisan cheeses were things that could be reasonably produced in one's home, a lot more people would be probably be doing it. Alas, these things require complex inputs that are out of the hands of most lay people: the right geography, lots of space, REALLY big equipment, etc. Not so espresso. With just a simple contraption that easily fits on almost anyone's kitchen counter, a person is capable of making it quite easily. Several times a day. Day in and day out. Thus the hobby. Beer brewing is similar.

Oh, this is just so wrong, I don't know where to start. The best I can do is to remind the OP that espresso making may be a hobby here, but for some it's a profession and a life's passion. LM machines happen to come from the world of serious professional espresso makers. I've been using the term hobbyist, but I could have also said amateur...some of us here and a lot more out there in the coffee world are professionals. I'll tell you right now that it isn't a matter of grind, pack, extract, repeat.

Gfcronus wrote:A logical counter to that would be this: If someone wants to learn to drive 120 mph in a Porsche 911, must he first learn to master 60 mph in a Dodge Caravan? Why can't he master 60 mph in said Porsche to begin with, then move on to 75, 90, 105, and finally 120 mph as his skills improve?

So this may be sort of academic or just didactic, but the car analogy is totally inaccurate. If a GS/3 AV were a car, it would have no steering wheel, a digitally programmable top speed, and a big button with a strange swirly icon that made it accelerate very quickly to that top speed and do a very precise job of maintaining that speed. Oh, and it would have the option to stop after a desired distance was traveled. A GS/3 MP would do all of the first part, but instead of traveling a programmed distance, it would allow you to steer a fixed amount to the left and then back to center. A commercial HX would be similar to the first car with a naturally determined top speed that required a little bit of engine revving before hitting the go button - sort of like the "launch control" on italian performance cars. Does any of this seem at all helpful in explaining the nuance of turn roasted cherry pits and hot water into a delicious beverage whose appeal spans the globe?

I personaly feel that part of what makes espresso special is that it isn't analogous to any other activity. If you must make one, I've found that equating the machine to a bread oven to be helpful, to a point. Kees' machines might be like a free standing brick oven hand build by a master oven builder, while high end LMs are like slightly less alluring but still hand built ovens found in the best artisan bakeries. Might we think of light duty commercial HXs as equivalent to the best commercial bread ovens that can be installed in the kitchens of very serious restaurants? This is where the analogy start to get a little thin. But regardless, thinking of an espresso machine as a oven instead of a car should make it clear that it isn't the machine that's doing the making...ovens aren't first in line to claim responsibility for making a exquisite loaf of bread...the baker is that dude. Like the artisans that build the best brick ovens, master bakers have at their command years of training and experience that bolster their natural talent and excellent palates. Quite a few people here also pursue baking with a passion similar to their coffee making. I actually know two trained pastry chefs who are also baristas, so maybe the analogy is more solid than it feels.

So that's how I feel about espresso analogies.

On a more serious and depressing note, I feel rather strongly that the over emphasis on equipment in the amateur world degrades the quality of the discourse and the relationship between the home coffee making communities and the professional coffee making community. There are non-professionals ("amateur" doesn't pay them their due respect) here and elsewhere that have made serious technical contributions to the specialty coffee world at large. A lot of the same people can take credit for pushing the technical envelope in ways that coffee professionals on the ground and in the trenches either can't or don't. But I see so many examples of completely unfounded and ill-informed GS/3 and Robur lust amongst people buying their first or second setup that I can't help but feel that the net effect is somehow negative. It's a sign that to those entering the community, coffee making appears to be as the OP stated: grind, pack, extract, repeat; better equipment = better coffee. We know that this is not the case, otherwise we wouldn't be here talking about how our coffee tastes, we would just be scheming on how to upgrade our coffee by upgrading our equipment (which a fair number of people do here on a daily basis). I think the Pharos deserves a lot of credit for bringing the average home espresso maker back to a more meaningful relationship with their coffee...same goes for the Lido. I feel like I see a lot of really happy hand grinder people enjoying their espresso and a lot of sullen "settling for less" posts about buying a machine that isn't a GS/3 or a motorized grinder that isn't a Robur. High end commercial gear isn't even remotely necessary to make truly excellent espresso, but being excited about pulling shots and tasting espresso absolutely is. Things that dampen that excitement aren't good things.

High end commercial gear isn't even remotely necessary to make truly excellent espresso, but being excited about pulling shots and tasting espresso absolutely is. Things that dampen that excitement aren't good things.

That is a quotable quote. If you look at the "right price" sticky thread at the head of the buying advice forum you'll find a less eloquent quote of mine from 2011. I'm even more excited about espresso now than I was then, even though I've only invested an extra £100 in my kit (a new Made by Knock hausgrind). Now I've got about £300 total into the kit. I've been working on my SO tasting, as well as sampling a variety of local and imported Italian blends. My espresso is not world class, but most any guest I've had comments that it's the best they've ever had.

Still, I must say that if I had a few grand laying around, and a place to put a commercial lever machine, I would not feel the least bit guilty about buying it. If a GS/3 gets you excited, go for it.

PC

Will you experience buyers remorse? Almost certainly!

Espresso is not driving fast, and a GS/3 is not a Porsche.

When you buy a Porsche you get an expensive German engineered sports car that you will likely appreciate the first time you drive, because you have been driving a long time. However, a Porsche is not a GS/3. a Porsche is more like one of the many very nice $1700 to $2500 machines that have been mentioned, a lot of bang for the buck. A GS/3 is more like a Lamborghini Aventador. There may be an appreciable difference between them performance wise, but at a serious price increase.

It will be frustrating when you blow through your first several pounds of coffee without a single decent shot. It will be frustrating to learn how to dial in a grinder. It will be frustrating the first time the machine develops a service issue.

I would rather start with a Porsche and learn to appreciate performance driving at a fraction of the cost.

Russel, with your consent, I'd like to respectfully request permission to enter the community of home espresso makers. If there is a super secret handshake, I promise not to reveal it to anyone, including my wife.

By the way, I do hand grind my coffee every morning. I might get into roasting too if that doesn't rub folks the wrong way.

Gfcronus wrote:a.) I'd be an idiot and a tool to start this hobby at this price point and not "earn my bones" by working my way up from a lower level

This has been answered, though perhaps not clearly enough:

Low-end equipment will not help you earn your bones.

My recollection is that when I asked the same question about five years ago, it was Dan (HB) himself who said that struggling with the shortcomings of a Silvia would build no generally useful espresso-making skills, only skills that specifically applied to making espresso with a Silvia. Further up the scale, learning how to do an HX water dance is a sort of useful skill, but won't be applicable to all HX machines -- i.e., some machines require a specific dance. And the dance has little to do with the general art of making espresso, and by that I mean the skills that are required regardless of the equipment.

As I tried to say before, once you eliminate the quirks and shortcomings of the machine, you can concentrate on things that really make a difference:

1. Selecting, acquiring and storing exceptional coffee (and/or roasting it if that's your thing)
2. Learning how to properly distribute coffee in the basket (and tamp evenly and consistently)
3. Learning how to dial in a target brew ratio (i.e., setting grind, dose and beverage weight)
4. Learning how to taste (Is it balanced? Sour? Bitter? Roasty? Fruity?, etc.)
5. Learning how to vary temperature to optimize flavor
6. If allowed by the machine, learning how to vary the pre-infusion rate, pressure profile, etc.
7. Learning how to properly steam milk (if you and/or yours like milk drinks)
8. Optional: learning how to pour latte art

Learning how to do these things will make you a good barista. But all of them are harder to get right on entry-level equipment due to inconsistency and various machine quirks (yes, it's even harder to pick the best coffees when results are inconsistent.)

If you can afford it, start with a K10 and a GS/3. Then you can focus on what really matters. And you'll really enjoy the experience. If in the end you decide your budget is limited, put as much money as you can into the grinder. And whatever you do, don't cheap out on the coffee.

As for the toddler/family bit, the question is so intensely personal that this is really the wrong place to ask it. Only you can decide what makes sense for you. We each manufacture our own guilt. Just bear in mind that 1) the older you get the more you'll realize how short life is and that guilt shouldn't make you deny yourself what you can afford, and 2) Top end equipment usually has excellent resale value .

If you can afford it buy it. Just because I started with pos doesn't mean you have to. Perhaps the sweet won't be as sweet because you didn't have to drudge through the bitter, but who cares?

If you like the challenge of coffee, you'll have fun regardless of what you buy. Just don't be fooled that this will be your last purchase because there's so much about coffee that that you can enjoy that isn't necessarily better but just different.

A lot of people are sharing important life lessons here. If, as you sip the excellent espresso made with your GS/3, you think back to this thread, remember this one thing: Car/Espresso analogies never hold up.

Rich