For many, a vario+steel burr is an endgame brewing grinder. The next step from there is a large ditting or mahlkonig grinder, which is easily 4x the cost, and at least 2x the size. Even then its arguably past the point of diminishing returns, and the upgrade quality difference is vastly below your dollar return, YMMV. Ill be taking delivery of a LIDO II demo model soon, and Im going to do a comparison against a ditting brew grinder. If you dont mind hand grinding and it comes out as well as it sounds like it will, it may be the best brewing value out there.

Scottes wrote:Well after this thread and talking to a guy in work, I'm fairly convinced that I need/want a better grinder. Is the Virtuoso a *significant* upgrade over the Encore? Should I spring for the Preciso or even the Vario?

This would be for pourover, drip, Chemex and press. I have no intentions of moving to espresso in the foreseeable future, and will bite that bullet if it ever happens.

Of course I'd prefer to spend $300 vs $450, but have no qualms about $450 if that is the right grinder for me.

No, for your purposes you do not need to go up to the Preciso. The precisio is basically a virtuoso but with a mechanism to make finer adjustments for espresso. Since you don't need that, you don't need the virtuoso. Also, let me note that the virtuoso can handle moka pot and pressurized portafilter espresso just fine--just not true, non-pressurized portafilters. However, if you really want to, you can use the Virtuoso for non-pressurized espresso (eg you can up/down dose and use a firmer/looser tamp). Eventually, you would need to upgrade to a proper espresso grinder if you got bit by the bug, but then the Virtuoso can become a dedicated brew grinder.

Get a Virtuoso 585 used for cheap used (less than 150) and if you feel like you need the new burrs, you can buy them later for about 40 bucks (when upgradeitis kicks in...). I'm not sure but from what folks report the Vario+steel burrs IS and upgrade from a Virtuoso, but a minor one. Also, the suggestions of a Bunnzilla to someone starting out seems crazy to me!

Let me put it this way, it will take you a long time to outgrow the Virtuoso by taste testing.

Let me put it this way, it will take you a long time to outgrow the Virtuoso by taste testing

Well, then if by a "long time" you mean one year, then yeah, it'll take a "long time" to out grow the Virtuoso.

My Virtuoso 586 was only really marginally better than my Encore, as far as the grind goes. Definitely better but, just not as much as I had hoped. Now maybe I had the worst Virtuoso and the best Encore ever made, just my luck, but IMO there are better options. My Vario w/Ditting burrs is/was a huge leap over the Virtuoso, a much bigger leap than the Encore to Virtuoso upgrade turned out to be. Well, again, at least the difference between mine are. However, there is even more of a quantum leap in performance moving up to the BunnZilla. Of course it's not for everyone, it is ginormous, and size often is important, matters.

But when someone says.....

I'd rather spend $1000 once than spend $1000 over 3 grinders over the years. I have perfectionist issues, and think that every batch of Coffee X should taste identical.

Then, IMO, the BunnZilla is the best choice by far for the money (have @ $625 in mine), again, provided you have the the space for it, whether your new at this or not. And contrary to what some believe, it doesn't cost 4X times what the Vario does, even starting the conversion with a brand new G1. I only wish someone would have convinced me of this earlier on. Instead, I ended up doing exactly what this person who posted is trying to avoid.

YMMV!

Yup, I definitely believe what I said. I'll add that I generally find that stepping up one grade leaves me wishing I had stepped up two or three grades. An upgrade is always good, but a significant upgrade is awesome.

I definitely do not have the space for a Bunnzilla. And I will never buy used or refurb. Never.

I'm looking at the Vario now, checking into the steel burrs (which I might wait on because I cant find a Vario+steel at a reseller).

Totally agree with what you are saying WSH, and I must have missed the "1000k" quote as I was under the impression the OP wanted to start with an intermediate level grinder. It took me a year to outgrow the Encore, and I haven't outgrown the Pharos in any way. The Virtuoso is newish to me and I can't say I've outgrown it. So, I'm beginning year 3 and I'm sure I've got lots to learn.

Now, I also interjected advise based on my own method for upgrades. That is, in small steps. The Encore I started with helped fund the Grinta and the Grinta helped fund the Pharos. Now, I also have a Virtuoso and am very happy with it and haven't outgrown it but I will sell it to fund a Lido (not sure it is an upgrade in grind quality but certainly in portability). So, it certainly is a lot more work on my part to keep selling stuff but it helps me upgrade in small chunks. I'm a broke grad student living in super expensive NYC so that's my way of getting better and better gear If this is not a restriction to the OP, then all bets are off

beer&mathematics wrote:...and I must have missed the "1000k" quote as I was under the impression the OP wanted to start with an intermediate level grinder.

The OP did. Conversation has steered in a way that I kinda hijacked this thread about upgrading to a Virtuoso or better. Still relevant, but the OP is trying to decide between an Encore or Virtuoso.

Whoa, didn't see that this thread had blown up! Well, I ended up buying a Breville Smart Grinder, which I was not very impressed with (thought it wasnt very consistent and it produced too many fines). A couple days ago, I ordered a Baratza Virtuoso, which should be here soon. I'm quite excited, hopefully I like it. I'm a little nervous that since it is similar to the Breville I won't be that impressed. I guess only time will tell, though.

I'll keep you all updated!

The Bunn grinders can be cut down fairly easily if you want to do it. For reference, after a year or so of once a day, 5 days a week grinding for FP our work encore produced so many fines it became impossible to brew with a siphon on any setting. YMMV, but buyer beware.

Try grinding finer with the Encore - my experience with burr grinders shows these usually create more fines at coarser settings than finer settings.