Hello everyone! I'm new to HB but have enjoyed looking around the forums and reviews for a little while, but I look forward to posting more in the future.

My current budget for an espresso machine is 1200-2000, but I'm hoping to stay lower closer to 1200 if possible. This is not counting a grinder as I've set aside 400 for one and have been checking craigslist daily. I'm pretty much sold on a Mazzer Mini or a super jolly, though I was wondering what is an ideal price to look for in a used Mazzer?

As for an espresso machine, I'm leaning towards a Dual boiler, though I am open for HX suggestions as well. I'm looking for a machine that has good steaming capabilities as practicing Latte art is important to me. I'm a fan of the Italian machines but I'm open to other options as well.

-Thanks for your time, Josh.

Josh, two points.

1) I don't think anyone will disagree that the SJ gives better results in the cup than the Mini, so if space isn't your concern, I'd go with a SJ first any day. The Mini-e does use the larger 64mm burr set, but it's not the same as the SJ's. There are mods to put the SJ burr set in the Mini-e if you don't mind modding.

2) Other than the Breville Dual boiler which can be had for around $1,000, less when caught on sale, DBs are going to be on the upper end of your price range, with the QM67 coming in at $1,899 and Mini Vivaldi at $1,995 without the pre-infusion option. I think all the other full DBs on the market (ie not DB with thermoblock like the Silvano) are well over $2,000.

DB or HX of course has been talked to death. It's personal preference. I'd say keep in mind looks and features because you're going to look at and live with any machine in this price range for a long time. Of course budget at least $100 for accesories.

John

In addition to the machines John mentioned, the various current incarnations of the Expobar Brewtus cluster around $2K. That's not a recommendation, just an observation.

The first thing you should do is decide whether you want a DBPID, lever or HX and why.

I don't want to get into a big compare and contrast on the differences between HXs clustered in the $2K range if you don't want an HX.

You said you're leaning towards a DB, and there's no reason to talk you out of it unless you have some particular misgivings. I will say though, that the most interesting machine in your price range, as well as the closest thing to the real thing, is a lever -- the Bezzera Strega.

If you want a DBPID, the next thing you should do is either buy the Breville or make a compelling case (to yourself) why you want something more expensive. You can pull an excellent shot of coffee on a Breville DB -- probably as good as anything else in your price range. There are certainly good reasons to want to buy into the next class up, but whether they're worth an extra grand to you is a question only you can answer. Start by articulating your thoughts.

No matter which type of machine you choose, one thing to consider is "plumbing in." The difference in using a plumbed in machine as opposed to one which is not are hard to overstate. You will not only enjoy making coffee more, you will make better coffee. If you can plumb in, you should plumb in.

Another thing to consider is allowing some budget creep. If you compromise to meet an artificial price line but can actually comfortably afford more, you'll regret it for years. As it happens, the desirable prosumer DBs run around $2500.

BDL

boar_d_laze wrote:You said you're leaning towards a DB, and there's no reason to talk you out of it unless you have some particular misgivings. I will say though, that the most interesting machine in your price range, as well as the closest thing to the real thing, is a lever -- the Bezzera Strega.

If I can deceive myself that I need a lever in addition to the Mini Vivaldi, I'm getting a Strega! I'm pretty close to 1st-line too......

jfrescki wrote:Josh, two points.

1) I don't think anyone will disagree that the SJ gives better results in the cup than the Mini, so if space isn't your concern, I'd go with a SJ first any day. The Mini-e does use the larger 64mm burr set, but it's not the same as the SJ's. There are mods to put the SJ burr set in the Mini-e if you don't mind modding.

2) Other than the Breville Dual boiler which can be had for around $1,000, less when caught on sale, DBs are going to be on the upper end of your price range, with the QM67 coming in at $1,899 and Mini Vivaldi at $1,995 without the pre-infusion option. I think all the other full DBs on the market (ie not DB with thermoblock like the Silvano) are well over $2,000.

DB or HX of course has been talked to death. It's personal preference. I'd say keep in mind looks and features because you're going to look at and live with any machine in this price range for a long time. Of course budget at least $100 for accesories.

John

Thanks for the info! I was looking into the Breville and it does look like an excellent machine for the price, I haven't been able to find much on the longevity of it though since it is newer. Also do you know if the Breville has good steaming capabilities?

I really like the looks of the QM67, i'll have to look more into it. Though I'm not sure how much it offers for nearly 1k more than the Breville. I'm not really sold on DB's yet, just weighing my options as to what will give me the best steaming in the price range.

Emericajosh wrote:I haven't been able to find much on the longevity of it though since it is newer.

True dat.

Most espresso machines of a given type within a given price range are made from a relatively small set of components -- so, internally they tend to be more like one another than not. The Breville is different. It's a lot of stuff crammed into a small footprint, with a lot of purpose made components, everything made and assembled in China.

However, Breville shepherded the machine through it's few early teething problems with a lot of class, and subsequently there haven't been many problems -- at least not problems getting a lot of play in coffee boards. Given its price, it seems to be reliable.

The big worry is that the current model cannot be descaled by the user; but must be sent to the factory. Supposedly the next iteration, due sometime in 2014, can be user descaled and a couple of other improvements as well.

When you think about the Breville you have to remember that it's low price gives you some freedom in terms of outgrowing it without regret and some room in the grinder department. For about the same price as a QM67/used SJ combo, you could get a Breville/Compak PB; and after a couple of years replace the Breville for something with something bigger and better.

Also do you know if the Breville has good steaming capabilities?

Compared to what? Once you leave the world of thermal blocks and SBDUs, steam is about boiler size more than anything else -- with wattage a distant second. The Breville's steam boiler ain't what you'd call large, nor does it crank a lot of watts.

It will steam significantly better than a thermal block or an SBDU, almost as well as some of the thousand dollar more expensive prosumer DBPIDs and significantly less well than others. It's got enough oomph for a couple of lattes. But let's not kid ourselves. You're not going to be pulling milk drink after milk drink. Not enough boiler volume.

I'm not really sold on DB's yet, just weighing my options as to what will give me the best steaming in the price range.

As a rule, between "straight pump" machines, HXs give you the most everything in a given price range, and best steaming is one of those things. At your level, DBPIDs will give you the peace of mind you gain from knowing that (a) even if your temps are incredibly off, at least they're somewhere in the espresso universe (let's face it, comforting to someone starting out); and (b) once you're dialed in, you're damn-well dialed consistently and reliably dialed in -- one less thing to screw up.

BDL

boar_d_laze wrote:As a rule, between "straight pump" machines, HXs give you the most everything in a given price range, and best steaming is one of those things. At your level, DBPIDs will give you the peace of mind you gain from knowing that (a) even if your temps are incredibly off, at least they're somewhere in the espresso universe (let's face it, comforting to someone starting out); and (b) once you're dialed in, you're damn-well dialed consistently and reliably dialed in -- one less thing to screw up.

BDL

Thanks for all the excellent info, appreciate it.

I'm starting to lean towards the Breville with the more I read about it, I think it will suit for home use well for now. The only thing I don't like, like you said is the lack of descaling without sending it in. The Quickmill looks far more gorgeous IMO, but the Breville seems a better bang for my buck.

Is there any place you recommend buying from rather than another? Also what are some accessories I should make a priority in terms of picking up? I was looking at replacing the tamper for sure, not a fan of the Breville tamper, was thinking of picking up a Reg Barber.

I would recommend an Astra Pro and Super Jolly combo. The Pro is a great machine, very well built, and compared to its more exotically-birthed brethren, under-priced. It's a tank, and beautiful.