HX machines lend themselves to temperature experimentation more than do DBs because the feedback is immediate.

I agree strongly with this view of HXs. Controlling brew temperature to manipulate shot flavor is an ability that you develop through experience, not thought exercises. The draw back to absolute temperature consistency is that you have to choose to deviate from whatever temp you are currently using. Often making that choice requires a lengthy sequence of button pushes required to enter programming mode, pass through several layers of menus, find the brew temperature adjustment option, choose bewteen a .8 or maybe a 1.0 degree temperature change (or maybe a 1.2 degree change would really better exaggerate any new tastes hiding in there), and then wait for the machine to stabilize at the new temp. Such a process pretty much precludes the small but significant changes that can spring from one's intuition. The precision and consistency of very high end DB machines demands a certain amount of intention from an experienced shot puller (or massive amount of persistant experimentation). There's often as much or more to learn from tasting an "off" shot than only sampling shots that appear to be in some sort of "sweet spot" of predetermined metrics. As far as temp is concerned, such "off" shots are hard to come by on a high end DB.

That was a little wordy, but I think I'm trying to say that there's more for a novice or intermediate shot puller to learn from a good HX than from a light commercial DB. Or maybe that a good HX can more easily/quickly respond to your intuitive sense of what's making a better tasting shot than a high end DB.

I have found that I turn to lever machines (with thermometry of course) when I want to delve into an unfamiliar bean. Once I get my bearings it's nice to move to a good DB to confirm my suspicions, but I don't think I would get there as quickly or as enjoyably were I using a high end DB exclusively.

Quite A BIT to absorb here. Grinder first. I'm frequently hearing "if you're thinking mini ... not much of a jump to an SJ." I'm on track with 64mm burr. I've seen the superjolley with the doser below 800. That's a good thing. My preference is towards doserless. The mazzer mini with the 64mm burr set looks like a better fit in a home. Aesthetics and the wife come into play. The SJ should grind faster. Is the SJ all that much better than the mini with the 64 burr set? Does the heftier SJ motor simply grind much better?

Until yesterday I had a Mini Timer which I had modified to accept SJ burrs. I also have a Mini E which I switched from the stock Mini E 64mm burrs to SJ burrs.

Mini Timer:
I feel the flavour profile improved significantly (smoother, more nuanced, whatever you want to call it) with the switch from stock 58mm to 64mm SJ burrs. New upper and lower burr carriers are required to allow the change so it's not particularly cost effective on a new grinder. The Compak K6 I have now is enormous compared to the Mini - the wife does not approve.

Mini E:
The switch to SJ burrs is obviously very easy on this machine. The stock Mini E burrs are less aggressive and grind noticeably slower. No issues with the motor handling the extra load. Grind is clumpy with the anti-static grid in place on the mouth of the discharge. Once the grid was removed, the clumps disappeared but static obviously became an issue. Problem solved with an Orphan Espresso funnel. A bit of WDT (ie mixing up the grinds within the funnel) and espresso looks great coming out of the bottomless portafilter and tastes even better. Grind time dropped from about 16 seconds to 11 seconds for 19g.

So to answer your last two questions.

Is the SJ all that much better than the mini with the 64 burr set?
It's a more powerful motor driving a more aggressive set of burrs. So comparing stock vs stock, I would say somewhat better flavour, much faster grind.

Does the heftier SJ motor simply grind much better?
Both the Mini E and SJ spin at the same RPM. The Mini E has had no issue driving the more aggressive SJ burrs though this may be dependent on the beans you favour.

Hope this helps.

clynch wrote:"if you're thinking mini ... not much of a jump to an SJ." I'm on track with 64mm burr. I've seen the superjolley with the doser below 800. That's a good thing.... Aesthetics and the wife come into play.

One more skip, not even a jump. For $875 you could get an HG One. You can't get better grinding and it's a bit smaller than a Super Jolly. I used TomC's again yesterday. It's very easy to turn and quite attractive. With that grinder you won't be tempted to upgrade.

It has been suggested that an HX machine would fit me well, but reading about all the effort to temperature surf I doubt I have the patience for it. I've pretty much selected my grinder (Vario) but I'm trying to decide how much I *really* want to spend on a machine. (I'm trying to stay below $2k for the machine + grinder.)

Using an HX is easy. Really. You count as you flush. You listen to the sound of the flush, whether it's boiling or has cooled from that. This lets you brew hot, medium, cool and even fine tune between that. This is from memory of using my Olympia Express Coffex, which will soon be rebuilt.

DB plus Vario for < $2K means a Breville DB, pretty much. Not bad, not bad at all. I'm considering the same setup for my kids.

You're allowing the HX learning curve to intimidate a lot more than it should. If your palate is sufficiently developed to tell the difference between "too sour," "too bitter," and "just right," it's not much of an obstacle. And if educating your palate is part of what you've got to do anyway, a DB isn't going to make the task any easier.

Don't waste a lot of time thinking about DB vs HX. They both good systems. The big take away is to buy something with which you'll be comfortable.

BDL

JakiChan - Chris coffee has that grinder and a couple choices in HX machines that would be close to your pricepoint.