TimEggers wrote: If I had to speculate I would attribute the smoother body to fewer solids being passed to the cup via lower pressure. I would attribute the slow flow rate (flow of water through the puck) to the resistance of the tight grind and the lower brewing pressures (water not being pushed as hard against the puck).

Why I think my shot differs from a more traditional ristretto: I seem to be relying more on steeping the puck by using a lower pressure and far slower flow rate through the puck (hence the long brew time). This it appears offers the full flavor of the blend by means of water contact or "steeping" more so than pressure extraction (or forcing the chemical flavor components from the beans).

Thoughts?

[edited 4-13]

Hi Tim:

First, I wouldn't assume that your machine is now delivering a true 8 bar. Stock gauges just give an approximate reading; you would have to retrofit a precision calibrated pressure gauge in order to get a truly accurate read.

Second, for many reasons, the pressure your coffee experiences in the portafilter is quite different than the gauge reads. So without testing, it's very difficult for two people to compare brew pressure parameters unless they have a special means to measure pressure AT THE PORTAFILTER.

IOW, the oft-quoted 9 bar "standard" is really just a vague guideline.

Third, some sources say that a traditional ristretto IS brewed for a longer period of time than the usual 30 seconds.

Fourth, dropping the pressure from 8.5 bar to 8 bar will in theory have only a very small effect on extraction time. The traditional fluid-dynamics equation states that flow rate across a restriction is proportional to the square root of the pressure drop. The upshot is that going from 8.5 bar to 8 will increase extraction time less than one second out of thirty.

Fifth, it doesn't sound like you've confirmed that the pressure change is really what's making your current shots taste so good. If you tested to see if you can reliably distinguish espressos that were extracted at 8.5 and 8.0 bar in a blind tasting, it would be more significant. Otherwise, the good shots might to happening for another reason (the coffee has hit a sweet spot in its resting curve, etc).

Andy,

I agree with you here. I don't have the slightest idea why my long shots taste so good and I'll be the first to admit that. I am also going by Anita's gage (it's all I have for now) so even my pressure readings are ballpark at best.

I wanted to start this discussion because 1) that long shot was darn good and watching it pour told me it shouldn't have been and 2) I have no clue why that is.

You hit the nail on the head, I'm not offering any significant evidence of anything nor am I intending to offer concrete explanations for any results. I was only wanting to share what I was doing hoping that others here could chime in and help me to learn a thing or two (or maybe 1,000 but I digress) about making espresso.

Again I appreciate the comments, commentary and enlightenment from everyone. That's what it's all about!

Tim,
I miss your old avatar. It just seem like you anymore

old442 wrote:Tim,
I miss your old avatar. It just seem like you anymore

My little girl is growing fast, she's changed so much since that picture. Thought I'd go with something more up to date...

Edit- Yeah I miss my old one too, oh what the hey I grabbed the camera and took care of the situation! She's back...

TimEggers wrote:My little girl is growing fast, she's changed so much since that picture. Thought I'd go with something more up to date...

Edit- Yeah I miss my old one too, oh what the hey I grabbed the camera and took care of the situation! She's back...

Nice Tim! The latest photo of your daughter is the first thing I noticed this morning.

At this stage of her life you'll be changing your avatar pretty often if you want to keep up with her...lol...they grow oh so fast.

That pic still shows her with the wild over espressoed eyes though. I think it's fitting, just try to limit her caffeine intake a bit, OK?

I have watched that video several times, and am still amazed that it did not taste like road tar. I have pulled some tight, slow ristrettos but nothing like that. I would have thought the extended extraction time would have made the cup very bitter and harsh from the massive amount of coffee solids and high temperature. That HX would have been getting pretty hot from that low flow rate.

cannonfodder wrote:I have watched that video several times, and am still amazed that it did not taste like road tar. I have pulled some tight, slow ristrettos but nothing like that

I have to agree, nothing I've tried like that has been drinkable. I'm all for bending the rules but in my book that is a choked shot, and I'd grind coarser next time round. Of course, taste is very personal so if this is your preferred drink, then congrats on finding it!

Guess I'm strange but didn't find the reported results that odd at all. For quite some time when pulling ristrettos I've targeted 45 seconds with first drop expected in 12 to 13 seconds. That's with rotary not vibe, with vibe target would be more like 50 seconds and first drops around 20. While my time does include ~3 seconds lines pressure preinfusion, I'm running about 4bar line pressure and a normal will have first drop at lines pressure at around 6 seconds! Temp wise absolutely compensate for differing intrashot profile. With normal I can expect ~2.5f intrashot drop, with ristretto virtually dead flat to very slight rise. (As seen and measured with partially plugged Thermofilter and also now Eric's adapter) So I target start of shot temp about 1.5f lower for a long pulled ristretto compared to normal for same coffee.

My current shot blend has a Kenya component with great bright berry-wine notes. This puppy lets you know in a hurry if your temps are too high! Earlier today pulled a quite yummy 26 second 2oz shot start of shot temp target 200f. Just finished a 45 second 1oz ristretto pulled start of shot target 198.5f, zero bitterness and if anything sweeter than the normale. FWIW ristretto first drip right at 12 seconds including 3 seconds ~4bar lines pre-infusion before rotary presure slam. Oh, current no flow pressure set ~9.25bar. I do plan to mod' my PF mounted gauge adding fittings and needle valve so I can measure simulated shot flow pressures when I get it back from it's current road trip.

While I don't target 50 second plus ristrettos have accidentally pulled a few, usually without terrible results. But that's when already targeting a ristretto pull with corresponding lower start of shot temp. Way off grind intended for normale shot ending up super long ristretto most often pulled too hot with bitter result. (Like that way off 0.5oz in about 60 second pulled double of Light Full City WP Yirg' instead of sinking I actually tossed back last year, now that'll make your hair stand up straight!)

OTH accidentally ground at Rocky true zero instead of +5 so decided to try a lighter dosed very light tamp and go for it. (LM double basket) Well, approximately 1/2oz total volume (almost zero crema) later killed it at 60 seconds. Major sinker. Ground where I'd meant to be +5 and yielded a quite tasty 45 second 1oz crema laden double ristretto...