RapidCoffee wrote:You might as well argue that this approach is the one we all should be using. But I (for one) would disagree. Different strokes for different folks...

So, in fact, you don't want recommendations.

Marshall wrote:So, in fact, you don't want recommendations.

Marshall, that's absolutely false. I've never tried to dissuade others from using different distribution techniques (in fact, I reference Schomer and Stockfleth in my WDT article). You have proposed nothing new, and even alluded to the old "Italian" way (single swipe of the doser and an upward push on the built-in tamper) as being desirable. I believe we've developed far more effective methodology since then, and the best is yet to come. I'd love to hear of an effective new technique, or better yet, an innovative grinder design that eliminates clumping and ensures good grinds distribution.

However, I'm not interested in philosophical and/or theological debates about technical issues. I don't believe "God intended" (your phrase) anything about espresso. Others may wish to debate the fine theological points of grinders and dosers with you, but I really don't see the point.

RapidCoffee wrote:However, I'm not interested in philosophical and/or theological debates about technical issues. I don't believe "God intended" (your phrase) anything about espresso. Others may wish to debate the fine theological points of grinders and dosers with you, but I really don't see the point.

So, which end of your boiled egg do you crack open?

TimEggers wrote:I'm curious is if those who don't use the WDT could post some videos of their typical extractions (with a bottomless portafilter). I ask because I have experimented with using the WDT and without and my flow is always more even with the WDT so I am going to continue to use it (at least for a while). The real kicker is the flavor, even without the WDT the shots were pretty good but there was a noticeable flavor change (and body change) when using the WDT. I'd love to be able to compare others non-WDT pours to what I have seen coming out of my own portafilter.

Any takers?

Feel free to drop by to TASTE any time.

Hell will freeze over before I ever video a shot.

BTW, any time the dose changes, via WDT, rapping the PF, Stockfleth, whatever, there is a taste and body change ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL.

cafeIKE wrote:Feel free to drop by to TASTE any time.

Hell will freeze over before I ever video a shot.

BTW, any time the dose changes, via WDT, rapping the PF, Stockfleth, whatever, there is a taste and body change ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL.

I agree completely with your last comment. My flavor/body changes were noted after weighing the basket (after tamping and just before locking and loading) and finding them to weigh the same with either the WDT or without it. So my dose wasn't changing per method. If the weights are the same then the dosing must be the same, yet the WDT shots were different tasting.

Just curious...what's wrong with taking videos?

Marshall wrote:So, which end of your boiled egg do you crack open?

Don't crack it. Be the egg.

RapidCoffee wrote:Don't crack it. Be the egg.

Was Swift into metaphysics? Sorry, let's stop this. This ship is way off course.

Marshall wrote:Was Swift into metaphysics? Sorry, let's stop this. This ship is way off course.

Sorry, thought you were just egging me on. I'll stop now. (Huge sigh of relief from the peanut gallery.)

I agree with Marshall (when I'm using my dosered Mazzer Super Jolly).

I agree with John when I used to use my Rocky doserless.

How many pros use doserless grinders?

I know I have become lazy in my technique because I was using the WDT with my doser. In fact I have found (like Marshall and others) that using the doser to break up the clumps the WDT becomes less effective and unneeded (when using my convex tamper). With my flat tamper my pours were terrible, with my convex the pours were as even as my WDT flat tamper pours.

I think perhaps we're losing sight that the WDT is most effective (and frankly a must if you ask me) for doserless grinders. However a good barista using a high quality dosered grinder shouldn't need the WDT (and that's nothing against the WDT at all). It's all about the application. There in lies the flaw of this debate (I suspect most pros use dosers)!

I would caution others that have dosers to try to better your technique so that you don't need the WDT (although its ok if you ask me to use the WDT at first to develop consistent pours when first learning with a doser). I fear that some like me were using the WDT as a crutch in a situation where it may not have been needed. But like I say for doserless (as John intended from the very start) the WDT is an absolute Godsend!

TimEggers wrote:I agree with Marshall (when I'm using my dosered Mazzer Super Jolly).

I agree with John when I used to use my Rocky doserless.

How many pros use doserless grinders?

I know I have become lazy in my technique because I was using the WDT with my doser. In fact I have found (like Marshall and others) that using the doser to break up the clumps the WDT becomes less effective and unneeded (when using my convex tamper). With my flat tamper my pours were terrible, with my convex the pours were as even as my WDT flat tamper pours.

I think perhaps we're losing sight that the WDT is most effective (and frankly a must if you ask me) for doserless grinders. However a good barista using a high quality dosered grinder shouldn't need the WDT (and that's nothing against the WDT at all). It's all about the application. There in lies the flaw of this debate (I suspect most pros use dosers)

Actually, I think we agree entirely. My first post was a criticism of doserless grinders, not the WDT:

Anyone considering a doserless grinder should watch the WDT ritual and decide whether the "convenience" of a doserless or avoidance of a gram of the previous shot's grind is worth it. I think the innovation of the doserless espresso grinder is a great example of "beware what you ask for, you might get it."

Oh, and my "which end of the egg to crack" reference, for anyone who thought I was losing my marbles, was to Gulliver's Travels (The Lilliputians went to war over which end of the egg to crack first.)