I'm curious as to why the stock baskets that come with some machines seem to hold so much coffee ?

Per my recent "success" at finally making an espresso I can actually enjoy, I discovered that 18g of beans gave me the best extractions. Admittedly, this is pre-grinder, I didn't weigh the final in-basket dose, but previously, I've noted that there's very little difference between the two weights, as I use a brush to pick up stuck / stray grounds and ensure the doser is swept empty. (Mazzer mini)

This still gives me some headspace, banishes early-blonding and any channeling, and leaves me with a slight shower-screen imprint in the spent puck in my Zaffiro.

If I dose less than this, it all falls apart. I feel that I have finally developed a repeatable technique and get consistent results (even if that's only recently, and has taken months), but down-dosing seems to leave so much headspace that the coffee expands too much until it finally becomes weak, especially around the edges, sometimes in the middle. It seems like basic physics at work.

I recently read an article (I forget where it was, and sadly I didn't bookmark it) that suggested that smaller doses gave better actual percentage extractions of the coffee, and that common Italian practise was to dose about 13g for a double. It seems that different coffees benefit from different doses also. My 18g double seems a long way from this "common practise", especially as the machine is itself Italian.

I appreciate my technique may not be refined enough to successfully down-dose a stock basket, but, given that I hear folks talk about experimenting with smaller "12g" baskets and there are much larger "21g" baskets kicking around, I'm a little confused on the matter.

Is it just me, or do others have issues with experimenting with dose amount, probably due to the relationship between the normal basket size and the headspace requirement of their particular machine ?

I'd appreciate any insights into this. I sort of feel I'm missing out somehow

Jon

[EDIT: Linked post has now been deleted]

Jon-

I believe you are referring to Jim Schulman's work in: SOME ASPECTS OF ESPRESSO EXTRACTION

I haven't had a chance to try it on Alexia yet, but on Silvia, I could successfully downdose an 18g ridgeless to almost whatever I wished (within double territory). If I ground fine enough (and in my case I also used WDT), I could pull good looking and tasting shots. I attributed the extra headroom on Silvia to be a good thing, sort of a poor man's preinfusion. I want to try this on the Alexia too and see how it fairs as well.

In my playing on Silvia, the spent pucks weren't pretty, in fact they were a wet and soupy mess. But, I wasn't going to argue with my results. I half wondered if you can get a "semi-suspension" of a finely ground coffee soup, so to speak, and if this isn't closer to how the Italians do it, with their finely ground, loosely tamped approach.

As to dosing, 18g is probably more typical among HBers than you might think, at least for now.

EDIT - If you find that the headroom is a big issue on your machine, you can try some smaller 12g and 14g baskets.

jesawdy wrote:
I believe you are referring to Jim Schulman's work in: SOME ASPECTS OF ESPRESSO EXTRACTION

Yes, that's the one. My apologies to Jim for forgetting that he was the author. It's a really great, very interesting article.

jesawdy wrote:I haven't had a chance to try it on Alexia yet, but on Silvia, I could successfully downdose an 18g ridgeless to almost whatever I wished (within double territory). If I ground fine enough (and in my case I also used WDT), I could pull good looking and tasting shots. I attributed the extra headroom on Silvia to be a good thing, sort of a poor man's preinfusion. I want to try this on the Alexia too and see how it fairs as well.

In my playing on Silvia, the spent pucks weren't pretty, in fact they were a wet and soupy mess. But, I wasn't going to argue with my results. I half wondered if you can get a "semi-suspension" of a finely ground coffee soup, so to speak, and if this isn't closer to how the Italians do it, with their finely ground, loosely tamped approach.

Your experience with Silvia is certainly interesting. With the Zaffiro, I was basically using the approach you've outlined, including WDT. I didn't get a soupy mess though, more like a fine wet sponge that easily fell apart when knocked out. The grind was a lot finer than I'd use for a bigger dose, I was looking for that "self-healing" behaviour. My tamp was very light also.

Maybe the pre-infusion makes a difference to the behaviour in my case, swelling the puck too much before the full pressure hits it ? Although I'm fully prepared to accept it's my technique. I'll be interested to know what happens if you try it on the Alexia.

jesawdy wrote:As to dosing, 18g is probably more typical among HBers than you might think, at least for now.

I did wonder. Part of me asking the question though, was because I wondered how many felt they had to use that much to get things to behave properly !

jesawdy wrote:EDIT - If you find that the headroom is a big issue on your machine, you can try some smaller 12g and 14g baskets.

Yes, I think that's an avenue I would like to pursue, although it seems like I may have to order from the US, as I've been unable to find anything locally. Unless anyone has any recommendations for specific manufacturer's baskets which happen to be on the small side, that might make an easier search than looking for a "12g" or "14g" basket over here !

Many thanks,

Jon

JonS wrote:Yes, I think that's an avenue I would like to pursue, although it seems like I may have to order from the US, as I've been unable to find anything locally. Unless anyone has any recommendations for specific manufacturer's baskets which happen to be on the small side, that might make an easier search than looking for a "12g" or "14g" basket over here !

Many thanks,

Jon

The Silvia stock basket is only 14gr, you will need a smaller tamper (something between 57mm and 57.5mm)
/gabi

The stock Rancilio Silvia baskets are smallish (and I have haven't had any issue with a 58mm tamper in them).

I believe you should be able to find a smaller Cimbali basket and a small La Marzocco basket, but on those I would be suspicious of tamper size, as 57mm tampers are often suggested. I have a 14g LM basket (ridged, from Great Infusions here in the US) and I can use a "58mm" tamper but I have to choose the right one! Same thing on the Cimbali baskets that I have.

There are some good pictures of different baskets at Espresso Resource, here.

Thanks guys for the tips, I'll look into these some more

Jon