I'm a relative newbie to home espresso. I have capable equipment, have been on the forums a long time and have learned so much from the many online resources.

Lately I've been furthering my interpretation of espresso with regards to overall intensity and how this intensity is attributable to brewing pressure specifically. The few discussions about pressure profiling while interesting to me are still a little above my current skill set. I do understand and have experienced first hand the affect of brewing pressure on espresso, at least on my set-up and in my kitchen.

What I'm struggling with is what I've read and learned versus what my tongue is telling me. I know the mantra and wholeheartedly believe that taste is all that matters. I just want to understand what I taste and am curious what others think with regard to established espresso brewing standards.

The preface is simple; over the past few months I've been pulling espresso at every (reasonable) point between 6-bar and 10-bar (on board pressure gauge against blind basket). The established standards (from what I've read and seen elsewhere online) recommend a point of between 8-bar and 10-bar against a blind gauge.

My tongue tells me that I do not like espresso brewed in that range. Yes some blends were better and changing the dose did help. Now mind you these "experiments" while not scientific have not been haphazardly done either. I've pulled hundreds of shots and spent time and great reflection at each point. I've worked with different doses (via weight) different grind versus tamp, you name it I've tried it, and while my machine is set above 8-bar the espresso is too over the top for me. The flavors are searing and the espresso has an edge that I just cannot accept.

I then began to lower the pressure (as I read it on the dashboard gauge). Down clear to 6-bar (which is as far out as the OPV will come before it leaks. At 6-bar the espresso is terrible too, under-extracted and shot volume quite low. However at 7-bar it seems like things fall into place (per my tastes). The espresso is smooth, nuanced, complex, clearly defined and with an intensity that makes it not just tolerable, but extremely pleasant to have in my mouth. The shot volume is right there with what I was getting in the 8 and up bar ranges. Adjusting grind when needed obviously.

Now one point of this post is to ask either my "gauge" is off or my tongue is. How "intense" should espresso really be?

One of the latest "experiments" was James Hoffmann's skimming crema experiment. A lot of folks tried it and liked it, some not so much and many suggested that it depends greatly on the bean used. James in that discussion mentions how non-homogeneous espresso really is (and mentions he prefers to stir his espresso). What if this indicates that brewing at higher pressures (thus further separating the layers) is really a "flaw?" Should espresso be more homogeneous? Should we be brewing at lower pressures? Should crema be lighter and more incorporated into the espresso shot?

Also since lowering the pressure I no longer have to incorporate long and ritualized basket preparation to get great tasting espresso that also looks wonderful from my bottomless portafilter. I've used every double basket I have and it doesn't matter, I grind, dose into the basket, level and tamp. That is it and it works wonderfully. At the higher pressures I simply had to WDT to get any consistency. Obviously the lower pressure goes easier on my distribution (which I don't think is in of itself too bad because the espresso is quite good tasting). Lord knows I've drunk many poorly distributed shots. Espresso in my kitchen seems simpler and easier (allowing me to focus on the taste of the coffee) and not what I have to do to best get that since lowering my brew pressure. Could the fact that so many tips and tricks to perfecting distribution mean that we have it wrong after all, and that we're "abusing" the puck with high pressures?

Like I said, I'm a relative newbie to home espresso. I do not intend to ruffle any feathers but I hope to invoke a little thought and perhaps we should reevaluate the established espresso standards, I did and my espresso took off.

I think it's worth it for people to experiment. Crema-skimming, lower pressure, up-dosing, down-dosing, single-origins, blending: people will eventually find what works best for them. No one can tell anyone else what espresso 'should' be like.

I know a certain coffee personality, who shall remain nameless, who never misses an opportunity to say how much he/she dislikes single-origin espresso. So much so, in fact, that he/she is trying to push his/her ideas on people. That's bad form.

I'm grateful that we do have some open-minded people in the coffee world who are willing, not only to experiment with new things, but also to challenge long-held beliefs. James recommended two things in that video you mentioned--one was well received, the other not so much so. Both should have been applauded equally. I hope people have tried them.

Thank you, Tim, for your experiment. I know it's not the first time you've mentioned it but, seeing as I have a Pavoni, I'm probably already doing it without consciously realizing it. While I'm at it, thanks John for the WDT. Thanks to whoever it was who, a long time ago, suggested grinding finer and tamping lighter. Thanks, Doug and Barb, for bringing ceramic grinders to the market. Thanks to whoever it was who first tried preinfusion all those decades ago. Thanks, James and Anette, for skimming and stirring.

I hope the coffee industry keeps on experimenting. I wouldn't say we have it wrong, as I don't think there is a 'wrong'; there is only the way you enjoy it.

I totally agree with experimentation. I believe we havent even begun to scratch the surface of what can become of the coffee bean. And in that regard, I also believe that in the past couple years, equipment design is going in the right direction. The first thing that comes to mind is the E-61. Without a doubt, a great, solid, dependable design. But thats almost 50yrs ago, and a lot of machines, both commercial and prosumer use that design. Not that its bad, but we shouldnt stop and say, "ok, were done, pump out the machines to stores". We ALWAYS need to keep learning, changing, evolving. The minute you stop learning is a very sad day.

Whenever I hear "Italian Espresso", or "standards of espresso", I get a little annoyed. Espresso is just another way to brew coffee. When it comes to other brewing methods, you can pretty much do it anyway way you please, and enjoy. And while espresso does take a slight bit more skill then other brewing methods, past that, it can be whatever you want it to be. But there seems to be more "rules" to espresso then other brewing methods.. And while those "rules" in general help to produce good beverages, there is NO reason we shouldnt, step out of the box, so to speak.

Just as an example, take pump machines vs. lever machines. They produce clearly different, but equally great shots, granted the PBTC knows how to operate the brewing device. Shots from a lever machine are so different that of those from a pump driven machine. So why shouldnt shots from different pump machines be different? Why shouldnt certain parameters be altered from coffee to coffee? It simple.. They should be different! They should change!

Now, my personal opinion, is that, espresso should be whatever you want it to be. However YOU want to make it, however you want to drink it. Aside from using fresh coffee and a good grinder, then you can pretty much do whatever you want to, to make a drink which you most desire.

Coffee is no longer a drink to me. It is purely a hobby.. Well.. Obsession better defines it. And while I do applaud people who really take a new approach to things, like grinder design, machine design, and drink preparation, I personally find, that with the equipment i own, the way I make my shots is the best way. And Ill bet the bank that If I had everyone from this board over to my house and pulled shots for everyone, there would plenty of people who think i cant make espresso, plenty of people who think I can, and maybe one person will try what I do, for themselves. I like to experiment, and I like to always change things. Ive been all up and down the brew pressure range, from 7BAR to 12BAR, and Ive tried all the baskets I own, from singles to triples, and a lot of different types of coffees. And I find, for my tastes, with the coffee I like, the baskets/doses I like using, that 8.75BAR, 17-22gr doses, and 30-35 second shot times produce espresso which I really enjoy very much. Can it get better? I sure as hell hope so! And I will continue to do what I love to do... Experiment.

Espresso was originally made at one bar, and mocha pots still operate at this pressure. Levers operate between 5 and 8 bar. Coffee makers like the Senseo or Keurig operate at 2 to 3 bar, while home super autos run at 3 to 6 bar (estimating from their flow rates based on the pump curves). So the entire pressure range is being used by stock machines.

So are there any rules or boundaries at all? Where does espresso end and something else start?

In the 1950s, espresso was simple: a short cup of black coffee made to order fast. Gaggia's lever machine made it shorter, faster, and therefore even "more espresso." But this is not the 1950s, when every product had a simple definition, and if you didn't agree with it, you were some sort of weirdo. If espresso is to move into the 21st century, you have to have to be able to walk into a cafe and get as many different straight shot options as you can milk drink options now. So bring on the pressure profilers, the temperature selectors, the extraction fractionators, and SO menus. Lets come up with a whole new language for ordering straight shots, and make all the skinny-Venti spouters obsolete.

But before such a straight shot menu and language becomes possible, we need to know what these variations do to the extraction and to the taste. "This is tasty" or "this is interesting" doesn't hack it. The trick would be to produce a drink that is clearly different in a way that can be easily reproduced over and over again, and that sets the stage for a lot more variations.

Tim, I'm not sure there is much more to be said . . . Jim, Jeff, and "SlowRain" have all made excellent points, and as you quite clearly already know and understand, it's what YOU like -- just as (e.g.) there is no "one, right way" to enjoy wine, no "one, right way" to enjoy a steak, this is also no one, correct way to enjoy coffee, let alone espresso.

I confess the first thing I thought of was the various pressure "points" at which espresso is and has been made over the years, as detailed by Jim. Looking only at pressure for a moment: if one thinks of "experimentation" as moving along the arc of a pendulum, one always "needs" to swing farther out -- indeed, as far out as one can along that arc -- to know and understand that the best place to be is only __________ (insert appropriate fraction here) of the way along the path (e.g.: run the pressure from 1 up to 10 bar, tasting results at every step along the way, and you'll find that 7.0-7.5 works "best" (for you). But if you stopped at only 4 bar, you'd never know . . .

Rigid standards -- in matters of taste -- are always "wrong." We all have our own taste buds in our mouths, and while we may share certain general preferences (human beings like "sweet"), not everyone of us loves, say, orange blossom honey. Indeed this is why "what's in the cup" is the mantra: it's how we like it that counts, not how everyone else likes it.

This is why some people still drink Maxwell House, or Tasters Choice, or venti lattès at Starbucks, and (were they to pop in here at HB) don't understand what all the fuss is about: they LIKE Maxwell House or Tasters Choice or venti lattès at Starbucks. And it isn't a function of, Oh, if they only could taste the double ristrettos at Blue Bottle . . . (or Intelligentsia or Counter Culture or ____________ ) THEN they'd understand. You can't hit someone over the head and get them to "see the light." You can hit people over the head and give them a headache.

It is easy to fall into a rut, however, and that is contrary to desirable path of continued experimentation. For example, not everyone here likes the roasts offered by Espresso Vivace in Seattle. I do. But if all I ever did was get my coffee from Vivace, I would never discover the coffees from Klatch or Metropolis or Terroir . . . and even though I continue to mostly buy from Vivace, I also continue (every so often) to try coffees from different roasters as well. (Like the pendulum, if all you ever do is buy chocolate chip cookies from Mrs. Field's, you'll never discover that you like the cookies from the bakery on Main St. even better!)

Cheers,
Jason

Jason, you brought up a good point.. Well,, you brought up good pointS, but one in particular I constantly wonder about.

Ordering coffee. You said you mostly order from Vivace, but of course, branch out and try other coffees from other roasters as well. I do the same. Ive got my favorites, but I NEED to try different coffees after a little while.. I get so bored. Ill order from a certain roaster, say for eg:Intelly, for 2-3 orders in a row*, and then order from someone else... And on it goes. There are people who tend to find one blend they like, and buy that, and only that blend, over, and over, and over. There is nothing wrong with that at all, but to these people, I think espresso is more of a drink, and less of a "project". IF you want to experiment with brew pressure, shot temp, and other variables, then trying different coffees is just as important as trying updosing. FWIW, Im not naming anyone in particular, I moreso see these people on Youtube or the like, only buying one blend, once a week, forever. I think that the majority of people on the boards branch out plenty.

*There are times where I will order more then 3 times from a roaster, but this usually means they have more then 3 espresso choices.

Warning: possible thread drift ahead . . . or just vague ramblings on a hot, late summer's morn . . . .

JmanEspresso wrote: . . . I think that the majority of people on the boards branch out plenty.

I think what you say is true, but that bring up another important point . . . at least, it's important to me.

Something that has always struck me about topic/hobby specific boards such as this, CG, various wine-focused boards, etc., is a certain degree of "occupational myopia." Posting back and forth on various topics, and it can very quickly seem as though the "entire world" is on the same page. We are ALL "into" espresso, ALL into high-end equipment, ALL fanatics . . .

It isn't true, of course, but that doesn't stop some of us (myself included) from occasionally greeting a "newbie's" question with a degree of dismissiveness (if not derisiveness), or responding with (as an example) the suggestion of a $500 grinder and $1000 machine, when the person clearly states their entire budget is $500 . . . or simply saying "it can't be done for that!" Of course it can. It might not be what we would choose for ourselves, and many of us are fortunate to be able to afford more in this obsessive passion we seem to share, but sometimes we dismiss as out-of-hand (either willfully or unintentionally) someone's limited budget or experience.

There are indeed people who love *$ -- for what they get in the cup, not out of convenience. The same is true for Dunkin' Donuts, or any other chain one cares to mention. (Not every place can be, nor does everyone want to be in, a third wave café.) Clearly, if someone -- anyone -- seeks out a site named Home-Barista.com, there is already an interest in espresso and in improving the quality of their drink at home. But we cannot and do not all have the level of expertise that, clearly, some of us have. As I've always said, I'm nothing more than an experienced newbie. I have much to learn. And yet, I am quite content with the quality of my shots.

That said, it is worth remembering that is also how I felt when I was using a Gaggia Coffee and a Gaggia MDF grinder . . . tasting that combination now, however, when visiting my brother-in-law's house, leaves me disappointed and scratching my head.

How was I ever satisfied with that?!?!?!

Cheers,
Jason

The perfect reason to stop the "if you like it than its right" advice isn't it?

(and I point that to the entire community, not any one person) Sorry, side rant.

TimEggers wrote:The perfect reason to stop the "if you like its right" advice isn't it?

Yes! It is. But for better or worse, few of us actually do stop there. Or rather, few of us who have been bitten by the bug stop there . . . whether it's being passionate about espresso, about the music you listen to, about the car you drive, passion drives (some of) us onward . . . .

another_jim wrote:Espresso was originally made at one bar, and mocha pots still operate at this pressure. Levers operate between 5 and 8 bar. Coffee makers like the Senseo or Keurig operate at 2 to 3 bar, while home super autos run at 3 to 6 bar (estimating from their flow rates based on the pump curves). So the entire pressure range is being used by stock machines.

So are there any rules or boundaries at all? Where does espresso end and something else start?

In the 1950s, espresso was simple: a short cup of black coffee made to order fast. Gaggia's lever machine made it shorter, faster, and therefore even "more espresso." But this is not the 1950s, when every product had a simple definition, and if you didn't agree with it, you were some sort of weirdo. If espresso is to move into the 21st century, you have to have to be able to walk into a cafe and get as many different straight shot options as you can milk drink options now. So bring on the pressure profilers, the temperature selectors, the extraction fractionators, and SO menus. Lets come up with a whole new language for ordering straight shots, and make all the skinny-Venti spouters obsolete.

But before such a straight shot menu and language becomes possible, we need to know what these variations do to the extraction and to the taste. "This is tasty" or "this is interesting" doesn't hack it. The trick would be to produce a drink that is clearly different in a way that can be easily reproduced over and over again, and that sets the stage for a lot more variations.

Thank you Jim for the synopsis it is very helpful. I would respond that no I don't believe in boundaries or lines in the sand with regard to espresso and the pressure its brewed at.

I feel and hope that pressure is the next area of espresso that really needs to be explored and addressed. For years it has been temperature and yet no one was talking about pressure. Ken Fox also started what I viewed as a very productive discussion on dose, which is an important consideration too. From Ken's discussion my main take away was that dose should (or back then) was the parameter to change to address "espresso intensity." In my experience dose helped but still left me short of what I was really wanting.

I realize that many variables have to come together in a successful espresso shot and my hope is that the community will push for the exploration in this regard. I'll admit your "shot menu" is very appealing to me and I hope the paddle machines or machines that allow the user to profile the shot pressure become more widely utilized so that barista's can use pressure to their desire much as we can temperature now.

Clearly that is a way off in the future yet, so what can we do today, those of us who brew at a static pressure? Perhaps we should be asking ourselves that each and every time we approach our machines, what should espresso be and how will I create it.

One reservation I have is that I still mostly volume dose, its just faster for me, perhaps lowering the brew pressure is a compensation for high dose. I just don't know, but lowering my machines pressure to where it is today espresso has become a joy to drink, a cinch to make rather than a cup of insipid liquid that I used to choke down while to trying to convince myself "that's how espresso should taste." Side note: the aroma is also much improved. It's working for me, curious what others think and how they have explored this parameter of espresso making and what conclusions they've drawn. Maybe I'm just a leverhead hiding behind an e61...