Tim,
- Why go as low as 6bar on the HX? My Peppina shots are usually done @ ~8bar.
- Any single 58mm baskets you know of that have deep central conicals?

As for temp delta maximums: declining up to 3-4F, inclining up to 2-3F, IIRC. Those are maximums, adjusting parameters(like the dimmer) yields lower deltas; and FWIW, my admiration of the Peppina shots is independent from the temp profile.

hperry wrote:I am guessing that the taste profile of the HX is fundamentally different from the lever.

I believe you, but my aim is to get as close as possible then decide to go for convenience or taste. But I have to get close first .

coffee.me wrote:Tim,
- Why go as low as 6bar on the HX? My Peppina shots are usually done @ ~8bar.
- Any single 58mm baskets you know of that have deep central conicals?

As for temp delta maximums: declining up to 3-4F, inclining up to 2-3F, IIRC. Those are maximums, adjusting parameters(like the dimmer) yields lower deltas; and FWIW, my admiration of the Peppina shots is independent from the temp profile.


I believe you, but my aim is to get as close as possible then decide to go for convenience or taste. But I have to get close first .

It seemed to me you were praising Peppina for its ability to deliver three different temp profiles: flat, intra-shot rise, and intra-shot fall. With your firing the element during the shot to get an intra-shot rise, you have the Peppina emulating an HX. It will be harder to get the HX to emulate Peppina's flat-line profile and the intra-shot fall.

I suggested max 6 bars because I suspect you're getting lower brew pressure than 8 bars even with the manual assist through the shot. You're probably averaging 6 bars. Towards the end of the shot the brew pressure is trailing off as the spring expands. Buy maybe you are. But it would still be interesting to see what your HX does at 6 and on a smaller shot.

Nope, no 6bar on my Peppina; and I like the Peppina's shots more (way more) than the HX mostly regardless of brew parameters, except the for dose. It's a general impression that sticks thru most Peppina extractions (with a ~20g dose being fixed). I like to think there's something I can do with the HX to get the same result; mostly something in my tech -- as lowering/raising/inclining the pressure hasn't helped much. The latest idea being what I quoted peacecup saying: the Peppina double basket covers my tech faults. I do hope this is it as I have some deep, straight-sided 58mm triples that I plan to try on the HX.

Take the following as a general description of what I generally do on the Peppina:
-Target 201F brew temp: go FULL ON till 205F on kettle probe , lower dimmer to marked spot for stable brew temp.
-Flush once, slowly.
-Lock in the naked PF with a double basket dosed with ~20g.
-Pull lever slowly to fully saturate brew circuit. Proof of a full brew circuit is a heavy lever at the lowest point. If not full, swiftly, but slowly, partially release and pull the lever.
-Guide the lever from 0 to 3.5bar in about 4s, keep it at 3.5bar for about 5s more or 1st drops(as seen on the mirror ).
-Drive the lever in 2-3s from 3.5bar to 8.5bar and maintain that for most of the shot.
-I then, for the last couple second, needlessly drive pressure back from 8.5bar to 4bar and pull my cup.

Again, this is just my current routine. Other routines resulted in similarly delicious shots that I can't match on my HX. Let's hope those big HX baskets and a lower pressure will improve things.

[Wait, forgot something important: those amazing Peppina shots happen at high doses (think 20g+/-), using it's double basket, and producing a 1.5oz+ ristretto.

I read this and thought "WTF?!" I've been using around 9g, going up to 11g when updosing. I went off to m-m-m-my Peppina and started packing. I managed to stuff 18g in and the result was great. Maybe slightly less detailed than the lower dose but the sweetness and mouthfeel were to die for. This was with some Peru El Guabo roasted on thursday, I'm looking forward to trying with some rested blend.

I skimmed the last few threads, but have you tried what was suggested earlier? That is, a single basket on the HX? Depending on the shape, it will more closely replicate small diameter baskets on levers, which I believe is a large part of the taste profile.

My suggestion is trying a bunch of different single baskets, try both over/under dosing, and try some extensive cooling flushes.

coffee.me wrote: ... -Guide the lever from 0 to 3.5bar in about 4s, keep it at 3.5bar for about 5s more or 1st drops(as seen on the mirror ). ... Drive the lever in 2-3s from 3.5bar to 8.5bar and maintain that for most of the shot ... then, for the last couple second, needlessly drive pressure back from 8.5bar to 4bar and pull my cup.

I forget, did you have a pressure gauge connected to the thread on the front of the group-head? What's the brew pressure from unassisted spring?

Also, I am paying attention to and puzzled by your verbs, "guide" versus "drive". Is there any difference? Does "guide"=restrain the lever arm and "drive" = press up on the lever arm? Or are these verbs being used interchangeably and synonymously?

Thanks for bumping this, I'm still looking for a way for my HX to match my Peppina.

timo, about the verbs, sorry for the confusion but my English sometimes just sux!

Yes, the pressure gauge is attached to the thread on the group's front. Without assistance, the absolute max pressure profile will start at 6bar and decline fast during a shot. I said "max pressure profile" because with a less-than-full brew circuit, brew pressure starts at a lower number. I don't use my Peppina unassisted, though.

So, to pre-infuse, I restrain the lever, to brew I assist (or press up?), both in a controllable manner.

EspressoForge wrote:Depending on the shape, it will more closely replicate small diameter baskets on levers, which I believe is a large part of the taste profile.

The idea is to get a 58mm single basket with a center that's deep and straight-sided to replicate the doeble basket of a Peppina or Caravel, right? It's an appealing idea, but I couldn't locate such a basket. I looked here: http://www.espressoparts.com/PortafilterBaskets already. Any pointers on such a basket?

The Marzocco single baskets have the deep straight sides on the single.

Thanks Dave. Apparently, a basket with the right height/width ratio is what we're hunting for here.

I measured the Peppina's double: width ~45mm, height ~24mm. height/width ratio = 24/45 = 0.533.

Searched and found this page with several photos of the LM single. From the photos on that page, the LM single's middle deep part doesn't look like it would have a height/width ratio of ~1/2.

I also measured my huge, straight-sided, triple: width ~58mm, height ~27mm. height/width ratio = 27/58 = 0.465. If I were to fill this one with coffee to the same level as I do with the Peppina's double(i.e. few mm of headspace after tamping hard), it would take 30++g! I know cuz I tried. What I didn't try, though, is working with this basket and dose seriously.

So, yeah, I'm now looking for a 58mm basket:
- with a height/width ratio of 1/2, or a deep middle part with that ratio(e.g. an even deeper LM single).
- that doesn't take more than 20g to be filled close to the rim(after tamping!).

I wouldn't worry as much about finding a basket that looks exactly the same as a peppina's (or same ratio or same anything really). I would however try to borrow or buy as many single baskets as I could for your HX (58mm it looks like), and taste the results. I think it's readily apparent that shape makes a lot of difference in taste, but I think it's much less apparent which shape produces which taste. I suspect the reason is much more complex than that, but it's the easiest and cheapest thing to change that should give you some immediate results.

I'm also much more impressed with single shots in general on larger diameter machines than I am on the straighter sided double baskets. I'm sure some of this "magic" is readily explained by someone who knows flow dynamics quite well, but at the end of the day it's a cheap thing to try by comparison to many other alternatives.

Also, I'd like to mention that I think it's going to be relatively difficult to replicate one machine's taste on another machine. The reason is that I believe on the lever smackdown one guy with a pressure profiling La Marzocco could only get the idea of the lever he was testing on the LM. Not to say that it can't be done, but I would work to get a shot you like on the HX and then decide if it's the machine for you. Just my opinion.