I got my PID put together and ran out of Ritual Snowcone at about the same time. I switched to home roasted Sweet Maria's New Classic Espresso from 12/3 and found that I could only get good pulls at 12 - 14 g, not the 19+ g of Ritual I was able to pack in there before. I was getting screw head impressions in my puck with this coffee, the full city roast was probably absorbing more water then Ritual's roast (they were the same age).

It was fun to try different kettle temps, 200, 202, 204 and go from bass notes to fruity acids. The crema was better at 204 too.

Seems to me that you'd want to go up in dose with your HX, if your cramming 20 G in the 45 mm basket of the La Peppina for a nice ristretto, isn't that a 58 mm basket? How much can you fit in the filter? Makes sense to my newbie mind, at least.

Chris, rather than shooting in the dark, I was hoping some H-B guru would come and suggest something I could try on my HX. Or, someone who has a similar setup & experience who I can share thoughts with. I'll still wait and pray .

Yes, to my also amateur mind, upping the HX's dose seems to be the next thing to try. I'm now trying 25-27g with long, 3bar, preinfusion, which really sounds ridiculous! But in the absence of a brighter idea, I'll go on trying to see what's at the end of that bizarre HX dose exercise.

coffee.me wrote:Hal, did you give it a shot? If I can do it, everybody should, it's that simple .... just use good coffee.

C. Temp difference between kettle & near coffee is NOT constant. Without instrumentation, if you want ~202.5 at the coffee, do this: 1. Boil hard, real hard. 2. Turn it off. 3. Slowly pull two empty ones. 4. Lock and go slowly.

D. Pressure is very dynamic without your assistance. It maxes at 6bar on mine without assistance, but it depends on how much water there is in the brew circuit, more=more. Assist the lever, better use a gauge for that to be meaningful.


Temp slope isn't as controllable as pressure but it surely is to a certain point. You need the probes & dimmer to repeat. From my experience, turning off the element pre-shot gives you a significant intra-shot decline. Now, stabilizing or inclining brew temps are trickier to achieve. In a nutshell, for a straight line you adjust your dimmer so the kettle temp is slowly increasing, for an increasing profile you use less water in the kettle, start with lowish brew temp and use full power on the element before starting the shot.

But then, we're not talking about this, Jim. You got ideas to repeat my Peppina yogurt shots on the HX? 26g doses?

The above illustrates why I said earlier that the quality of your shots depends significantly on the "extras" you have in play - particularly your pressure measurements. I'm guessing that if you were to do as much experimenting with the pressure and temp on the Caravel you might yield similar results - given that you are relying on manually generated pressure to obtain your outcome. In any case I don't have the tools to replicate what you suggest is essential to the process. My initial inclination is, if you want a manual machine then use a manual machine.

I can replicate the temperature using the Auber PID. I simply need to know what you believe the temperature offset would be to achieve your results - realizing that it might not be the same for the Caffe Fresco coffees that I usually use.

In that I can get the results you mention with a Caravel without using the somewhat complicated procedures you outline for the Peppina, and that I am using the Caravel the way it is designed to be used, I'm not sure why I would go through the routines that you mention. For kicks, I'll try as much as I can by establishing a delta with the temperature and doing a manual assist. But even when I'm doing it I don't have your coffee, your barista skills with this machine, or the tools you are using. I'm disinclned to support the notion of "what else tastes like a Peppina?" Rather isn't it closer to "what tastes like a Peppina in Max' hands?"

As to your more fundamental question of getting the HX shots like a lever, I doubt it is possible without extensive modifications. I have only once had "lever-like" shots from an HX or a DB for that matter. A more likely candidate for accomplishing that would be something like the 2 boiler Speedster or the Slayer. Both appear to employ technology which allows a pump machine to mimic some lever characteristics. The two shots I had on a Slayer were more "lever-like" than any pump machine I have experienced. Of course there is no necessary cause and effect relationship between the quality of the shot and the technology that was used to brew it.

Thanks for your thoughts. As I mentioned on my initial post, my HX is modified to do line pressure preinfusion at any set of pressure and time combo desired. So, 4bar for 10s, 2bar for 5, or any other combo is easily achievable.

After that phase of adjustable PI, brew pressure jumps to 9bar(or whatever I set my rotary to). The last phase, declining brew pressure, is possible too but it goes from 9bar(or whatever) to PI pressure in a few short seconds.

In short, I can do the following example, simple(vs more complicated ones on the Peppina), pressure profiles:
-Go full pressure, all the way.
-Start with full pressure, then end with quickly declining(from brew to some set) pressure.
-Preinfuse @ any chosen line pressure and time, then jump to brew pressure, then stop.
-As above, but end with quickly declining(from brew to PI) pressure.

To be honest, Hal, my impression it isn't in the pressure profile; but, then, I'm not sure what it is.

Maybe your best bet for combining convenience with the kind of shot you like is a commercial lever. Always on, minimal fussing around, and the kind of shot you describe with the Peppina. With the Termazona you could do the kind of assist that you are doing with the Peppina if you chose, although I haven't found it necessary. With the Termazona: grind 18 to 20 grams of coffee, tap lightly downward to settle the coffee, do a single press with the Versalab press, engage the portafilter, cock the lever for 10 seconds for pre-infusion, gently release to the point of resistance - great shot every time.

I'm trying 25g doses with the HX and not getting far, nothing like the Peppina's yet. But I noticed something very interesting: uneven extractions from Peppina are still far better than ones from the HX, is that supposed to mean something?

One more thing, I can do gradual PI on my HX, as in: PI starting with a pressure of 1bar and slowly going up to 4bar over the course of around 7s. Haven't tried this yet as the grind needs to be adjusted and dialed-in for it to work, any guesses on how this should change things?

hperry wrote:With the Termazona you could do the kind of assist that you are doing with the Peppina if you chose, although I haven't found it necessary. With the Termazona: grind 18 to 20 grams of coffee, tap lightly downward to settle the coffee, do a single press with the Versalab press, engage the portafilter, cock the lever for 10 seconds for pre-infusion, gently release to the point of resistance - great shot every time.

That machine of Juanjo's? I wonder if he can join in this discussion. Yeah, that looks lovely, not that I can get one.

Going on collecting hints, Jack had this interesting thought on another, fresh, thread:

peacecup wrote:The shape of the basket probably has a lot to do with how much prep is needed. The deep narrow baskets of some home levers, like Peppina, Caravel, and Ponte Vecchio, are so easy to dose. They just lend themselves dumping the coffee in, tamping, and brewing. I think it's because the depth-to-width ratio is greater than on 58-mm baskets, and the puck is less likely to fracture. I found I needed to be more careful with the 58-mm MiniGaggia, and even the 49-mm Pavoni. I think a lot of the discussion around dosing and tamping comes from the fact that the larger-diameter baskets are inherently more difficult to use.

Regardless of being proven or not, I still like the sound of this theory cuz it points to my tech on the HX. Honestly, one reason for me trying a huge dose on the HX is this unspoken theory, or maybe I read about it sometime ago but forget I did.

The Peppina double is indeed straight-sided and deep and if I'm to try this, I'll have to use deep, straight-sided triple baskets on the HX too; which I also own!

I respect your probing. However, I am guessing that the taste profile of the HX is fundamentally different from the lever. I believe it is worth trying to understand why, but I'm pretty sure the differences are embedded in the DNA of the machines.

My suggestion would be to:

a) set the overpressure-valve so your HX delivers 6 bars maximum
b) bring your pstat down to the point where temperature of brew water above basket never exceeds 203F at its peak. Slow rebound.
c) experiment with the steam wand/hot water wand during the shot
d) get a single basket with the deepest central conical area you can find
e) pull smaller shots

You describe three temperature profiles:

1. Flat line
2. Intra-shot rising
3. Intra-shot falling

How many degrees does the shot rise/fall over the duration of the shot? What's the max delta?

Regards
Tim Romano