PS: I've been using a little "ProScale" LC-300 to weigh out the beans. Cost me maybe $13, tares fast, 0.1g accuracy and uses standard AAA batteries (yay). If you're weighing directly into a PF, this doesn't have the capacity. For filter baskets, little stainless measuring cups etc. it works great.

Curt, pretty much echo with what Jim & Mitch are saying. I had no end of problems with these baskets (both 15g & 18g) until I read what VST themselves were saying about them. You have to stick to rated capacity ie 15 for 15 & 18 for 18 is critical like within 1/2 a gram. Then the second part of the puzzle is to adjust your grind such that your std shot should be extracted within 25-30 secs.

Almost like magic your problems disappear. I am using the 18g now and weigh each & every dose. I have setlled for 18.5g each time now to satisfy my overdosing training in the past! I weigh in a plastic cup then tip into my PF equipped with an OE funnel & the whole process is incrediby tidy (incidentally I have tried the paper clip bit but have stopped as it does not seem to make any difference in taste for me anyway. The Robur e does produce clumps don't let anyone tell you otherwise at the fineness of grind that the VST's require - less so with coarser grinds). I cannot distribute with a flat device since it barely comes up to the top of the basket so I use a CD in a chopping motion and then groom to get a little concave in the middle (it is not a real nice finish but that does not seem to matter). Spin the tamper whilst supporting the weight then tamp. Seems to work everytime.

My old method was to fill the VST in the PF directly from my Robur e, tap 3 times level off flush with basket then tamp. I had all sorts of problems with donuts, spritzing etc. But that dose when weighed was typically 21g+ in the 18g basket.

I was in Singapore recently and incidentally one of the best coffee shops there is "Oriole" Cafe. They use the 22g VST exclusively and they dose 22g when I asked them. This seems a common thread now - it does seem you must dose to rated basket capacity pretty accurately.

Good luck,
JohnT

PS. The headspace looks huge in fact looks too big compared to what I was used to in the past. Also the puck comes out soft and sloppy - that is OK - I was taught that the puck should be firm as a way to determine if you have dosed enough - you have to just put that theory aside.

Possibly this will help or confirm what you are doing. PID Silvia, circa 1999, Mazzer Mini-E, 18g VST basket w/ 17 grams of coffee (Costco) in the basket. I grind into a spare cup (as shown), stir up the grinds (3 seconds vigorously), & then spoon them into the basket which is resting on a tared scale.



Here is what the basket looked like prior to giving it one tap on the countertop.



And here after distributing but prior to tamping:



And after tamping:



Coming out of Silvia at ~ 9.1 bar; pour was a little too slow but . . .



The resultant cup & basket:

Eric your last post showed what I am experiencing. My hangup was\is somewhere in the distributing step. In the past I just got rid of that excess(mound above the rim) instead of trying to use it. I current experimenting with different ways to evenly place it before tamping. If I just tap the filter basket, I know the grounds will go down, but i feel the center will become more packed than the outside because there is more weight in the center. Maybe I'm just over thinking.

I want to thank everyone for their advice in this caffeinated adventure. With all the coffee I have had tonight I'll be up until morning

I have had one shot that was very nice. Probably just a fluke though.

Thanks again

. . . I know the grounds will go down, but i feel the center will become more packed than the outside . . .

I don't disagree BUT . . . my distribution - several N-S's, several E-W's, & circular like a turntable results in the pic I took. The grinds that get spooned into the basket are the grinds that eventually get tamped. For the purposes of "getting things the way you want", especially after a change in equipment (basket or coffee or machine or whatever), its time to slow down a little until the bugs are worked out.

I have four VST baskets (2 15's and 2 18's) and have used all of them once or twice. They are not my everyday basket just like Silvia is not my everyday machine but that is NO reflection on VST. I'm just inherently lazy when it comes to changing routine.

Here's what I think is the essential point: You need to know what dose you're putting in the basket.

There are two good reasons:

1. VST baskets are, indeed, designed for the rated dose, +/- 1 gram.

2. Silvia is quite unforgiving when her headroom is exceeded. Headroom isn't defined by the dose itself, but by the combination of the dose and basket. Silvia and her stock double basket are pretty-much designed for a 14g dose. You can use a bigger dose in Silvia, but you have to use a bigger basket. The LM-style ridgeless double has a fairly large capacity, which is why you got away with doses higher than 14g before getting the VST baskets.

So, if you put 21g in the VST 18g basket and try to pull a shot with Silvia, you're asking for trouble: there's not enough headroom. I don't know from personal experience, but from Eric's test, it appears that the VST 18g basket, when filled with 18g of coffee, has enough headroom for Silvia.

Here's the technique I use with the VST baskets:

1. I use a weighing technique similar to Eric's. I weigh out .5g-1g more beans than the target dose, pour it into the grinder throat, grind the shot into the doser and thwack it into a cheap OrphanEspresso Coffee Bean Dosing Scale Weighing Tray placed on a scale that's sitting on the grinder forks. Then I stick an OrphanEspresso dosing funnel into the basket and pour the grounds as evenly as I can into the PF basket.

2. Next, I shake the PF gently from side to side, usually only once, so that any mound in the center will tend to fill in the sides. This usually lowers the level of the coffee quite a bit. Then I level the top of the grounds with a finger, filling in any visible gaps at the edges.

3. Next, I tap the PF on the counter once or twice. Settling the grounds this way seems to work well for me, regardless of the basket. This is something I discovered by accident over a long period of time. I'm not the only one. Such a tap is actually recommended by one well-known and highly regarded roaster for one of its higher-dosed coffees. VST also recommends tapping the PF on the counter. I have no idea what may or may not be going on from a coffee physics point of view -- I think it may have something to do with fines migration -- but I find the shots are more consistent and pull more evenly when I do this (warning: this is a completely subjective and unscientific claim ).

4. I've had the best results with all baskets and machines when I seal the edges of the puck. Like Eric, I do a NEWS tamp and a nutating tamp. Probably one or the other would be enough, but I'm OCD!

5. Then I carefully level the tamper before the final tamp. I've found that one of the most important things to do is make sure that the puck is level. A canted puck will not extract evenly. The ridge in the VST basket makes it easy to see if the puck is level.

6. I do one spin of the tamper to polish the puck, which is probably unnecessary but I like to do it.

Important point:

It's not clear to me that all of the above distribution steps are necessary on my equipment, which is very consistent and forgiving.

Prior to getting the VST baskets, I mostly used an LM-style ridgeless double. I removed the basket from the PF, thwacked the dose directly into it, shook it gently back and forth to distribute the grounds, then put it back in the PF. Since there was no ridge, the grounds weren't disturbed. Sometimes I didn't even bother to shake the PF and just pressed the mound of coffee down when inserting the tamper. There did not appear to be any consequence to doing so. I've seen lots of videos of people doing this with better grinders.

I did, however, do the NEWS and nutating tamp. IMHO, the quality of the equipment and the steps to seal the edges of the puck are far more important than any of the other steps described above.

However, since the VST baskets have a ridge, I can't dose directly into the basket. So I went with dosing into a separate container, which a number of people on this site do anyway (some use a spoon, but the OE trays eliminate that and are faster.) The other stuff, like shaking the PF, leveling the grounds with a finger, and tapping the PF on the counter are definitely in the YMMV category.

Hopefully this hasn't confused you. It boils down to this:

1. Measure the dose
2. Use the correct size basket for the dose
3. Distribute evenly
4. Seal the edges of the puck
5. Level the puck

The most important thing to remember is this: Whatever you do, always do the same thing! Usually when you change technique, you change the results. To get consistent shots, you must use consistent technique.

For example, many people debate tamping pressure. I don't think it matters a whole lot as long as you get the flow rate you desire (i.e., the grind has to be right for whatever tamp pressure you use.) What really matters is using the same amount of pressure every time.

[NB: Though Silvia doesn't have preinfusion, I want to address the comment on that. I've found that preinfusion is something that depends mostly on the coffee, not the basket. Some coffees do better with it, some don't.]

curtjohnson1980 wrote:If I just tap the filter basket, I know the grounds will go down, but i feel the center will become more packed than the outside because there is more weight in the center. Maybe I'm just over thinking.

You are.

BDL