All,

I have a Vibiemme Double Domobar Manual machine. Purchased for the simple reason to try and eliminate even more variables in my pursuit of espresso perfection.

Now that I've purchased a new tamp and can much more easily SEE if I'm level with my tamp, the naked PF extractions are a LOT better/even/etc.

So now I'm onto what the best way to verify what the temp is - Best being defined as not breaking the bank with some incredibly expensive gadget that I'll really use once.

I suppose there are still a lot more variables that might be attributing to my lack of tasty goodness, but since this is a PID machine, I'd just like to verify what's happening, as well as know how much to add/subtract from the PID display (as this has been discussed elsewhere and there is a range.. I think most common is something like +10... so if you want brew temps at 202, you set it to 212).

The offset is about 10°C.

Eric's thermometer adapter is every bit as useful on an e61 DB as HX.

On my DD, currently ~225°F ~202°F brew on the adapter, ~199°F at the puck.

Hmm. 10c, instead of 10F. I like how the readout is in F, and I bet I was long ago confused on the delta being in C instead of F.

I may finally start making good espresso yet. I'm surfing around for temps and the machine's currently set at 207, which is way way low.

And, I think a purchase for an Eric thermometer is in order... Google here I come.

http://users.rcn.com/erics/Pricing_Inve...dering.pdf

Just checked DD with Scace : 198.5°F for 224°F boiler set point

Set it to 225 when I got home today.

I'm in complete disbelief that I almost certainly mis-read what was given to me 1.5-2 years ago when I inquired about how/what to set the PID at.

I'm going to be elated, and livid, at the same time if the espresso I go pull in about 20 minutes is a lot better than what I've been doing since I got the machine.

Either way thanks - and I'll post taste info in a few

So not a godshot, but an improvement to be sure. I did one cardinal sin I suppose since now that I was looking at the machine I noticed it was running at almost 10bar, so I lowered that to just over 9.. a tad more sensible.

But the color change during extraction was notably different. Deeper, more red than it ever has been. The temp in the cup was better too.

One wonders with that last comment why I didn't really think about this a long long time ago. I've thought to myself many times at my favorite espresso shop here (Barefoot) why is their espresso in the cup so much hotter than mine....

That's a substantial amount you will have changed the PID setting and, BTW, I agree with Ian as regards his stated temperature setpoint.

BUT, MORE IMPORTANT, is to think about what you're doing - changing PID setpoint by 12-13 F is easy and the boiler will respond & stabilize in maybe 5 minutes max. However, the grouphead will not. I do not know the amount of time the grouphead temperature takes to go either up or down from that type of change but it is more than 20 minutes.

With the particular bean/bean blend you are using, it would be interesting to hear the "taste test difference" between temperatures A and B.

buzzmc wrote:I did one cardinal sin I suppose since now that I was looking at the machine I noticed it was running at almost 10bar, so I lowered that to just over 9.. a tad more sensible.

My DD also runs 10 bar on the gauge, but it's about 8.5 on the puck on an actual shot / Scace... last time I checked.

Only Jim Schulman gets absolution for changing everything at once

note that I changed the PID when I turned the machine on cold... and let it sit there warming up for about 45 minutes.... I didn't change the PID after the machine was already wamred up and only waited 15ish min... Though I would have guessed that the grouphead would get to temp within 20 in that scenario

Typically my espresso over the time I've had this machine has been lacking body, and rarely would I get a color in the cup that was as dark as typically seen elsewhere. Sometimes bitter, but mostly just lacking flavor, and generally not so great (tho still better than starbucks).

I drink mostly latte's... Largely due to this, but I also enjoy them a lot, so it hasn't been the monster concern it should be.

I've had all sorts of extraction issues for probably my entire barista'ing life. I recently received my RB "American Curve", custom engraved tamper. The huge difference there isn't really the curve (or engraving). Its the fact that the topline of the business end of the tamper aligns VERY well with the top of my bascket - Therefore it is extremely easy to see if you've tamped level.

This has fixed a lot of my extraction issues, and therefore peaked my interest again in getting my espresso going in the right direction. With all of the extraction issues its pretty useless to try and fix other things (IMO). And trust me, I've tried to fix my extraction issues to no avail... Apparently TRYING to tamp level, at least for me, without a good reference, is nearly impossible.

This last latte I just pulled was a tad slow, so I've adjusted the grind just a tad and left the machine on for "more research"

I would guess, and it is just a guess, that you would need around 20 min for the group to cool/heat after a PID change. If it is an increase in temp, then you could speed the process by doing a couple of flushes to help warm the group. Adjustments down you could lock in a cold portafilter to speed cool. A room temperature portafilter will cause the group temperature to plummet, fast. In fact you may cool the group to fast and have to wait for it to heat back up and stabilize.