nurxhunter wrote:"........and pulling more water through the puck basically dilutes the shot". But, it does not come out as water, it still has coffee. I find a longer shot serves me better for Lattes and caps. Why do Italians advise up to 60 ml for shots (in 30 secs for a double), but here it seems a 2:1 ratio of water to beans is what most use, or even less (1.5:1)? Longer extractions are in category of over-extraction, I think, so what does 'over' mean in this regard, if it's more dilute, is is considered over-extracted. Then under-extracted might mean too little water?

The differences between the 'classic' recipe (14 gm bean to 60 ml water) and 'new wave' ~17 gm bean and 34 ml or less water) seem huge. It this explained simply by different taste across the continents?

Is there any 'standard' here in the states?

I think the Italian tradition carried with it a far more complex beverage in terms of textures and flavors than what we commonly do today. The coffee was roasted more thoroughly, with those roast flavors penetrating thru the milk much better than our modern popular roasts. Also, consider that they constructed their beverages with a different approach to milk texture than we now. They weren't making tulips or latte art. There was a certain level of stretched milk that established the base strength of the liquid portion of the beverage (often sweetened with sugar on top of the shot before adding the milk); then literally scooped out thick pillowy foam on top.

So with those stronger coffee/roast notes punching thru, the dilution effect wasn't as obvious. And the added volume of the shot didn't tip the scale too far in the wrong direction, since a good portion of the beverage was still foam, and not all liquid.

Personally, I don't futz too much with adjusting grind or dose or even volume pulled when aiming to build a milk drink. I just instead use coffees which I particularly feel stand out better with milk (Africans often with Brazilian bases) and leave the Centrals for SO shots.

Having just read Jim Schulman's 2007 article, which addresses the effect of dose on taste profiles, I strongly encourage (re-)reading it, and consider what it says about strength versus flavor dimensions and the effect of under or over extraction.

http://www.coffeecuppers.com/Espresso.htm

Jim S's article doesn't explore the effect that adding textured milk has on flavor, and certainly the effect on flavor is large, but the "null hypothesis" is that the taste profile of the coffee may be optimized independently of the proportion of coffee to textured milk.

TomC wrote: Personally, I don't futz too much with adjusting grind or dose or even volume pulled when aiming to build a milk drink. I just instead use coffees which I particularly feel stand out better with milk (Africans often with Brazilian bases) and leave the Centrals for SO shots.

I agree, or as Kenneth Davids wrote, the blend for a milk drink needs to have some "milk mastering power". Once the flavor profile has been optimized for a given filter basket and roast level, and the ratio of textured milk to coffee is selected according to personal preference (relative to strength), the combined flavor profile is largely determined by the constituents of the blend.

Sideshow wrote:When it comes to pulling milk drinks for myself and friends, ristrettos usually end up making milk drinks with a lower coffee to milk ratio than I'd prefer for the particular variety of drink. Naturally, this outcome is due to the lower mass of the ristretto compared to a longer pull. I'm toying with the idea of pulling ristrettos for shots and normales for the milk drinks.

Why not just pull a second ristretto for your milk drinks? It won't add much prep time with your DB, and it should cure what ails ya'

TomC wrote:I think your point is on track for some baskets, but not specifically VST baskets, which are notoriously dose sensitive. They don't do well with updosing.

Okay that makes sense. Maybe something like the EP HQ baskets? The smaller baskets appear to have fewer holes, which may allow for the same grind at different doses. I was assuming (incorrectly) that the VST baskets would be similar.

bluesman wrote:Why not just pull a second ristretto for your milk drinks? It won't add much prep time with your DB, and it should cure what ails ya'

I think there are multiple ways to skin this cat, and that's certainly one. Although, I don't know if I really want to make a milk drink with a quadruple ristretto. I'm also not thrilled with the idea of letting the first double shot sit there, crema deteriorating, while I pull the second.

These are all just theoretical worries; I think I can try it to see how it actually plays out.