ok, not new to espresso, but new to this silvia and virtuoso set up. i know i have heard the virtuoso is not for espresso, but it is a newer one calibrated to the finest setting, i checked. i just got my new 58mm tamper, and dialed the grinds finder, tamped, and i was able to choke the machine. now i should have a starting point to grind coarser, right? i read here that the grinds should feel like granules between your fingers.
my pucks look awesome, tap out nicely, and the new heavy tamper really fits nice.
coarser, less tamp, that's where i am going tomorrow morning, any suggestions? ill post day 2.
i've had the machine for a few weeks, getting closer. thankyou.

oh, we roast our own beans, they are fresh.

bwcasolo wrote: starting point to grind coarser, right? i read here that the grinds should feel like granuals between your fingers.

Or dose lighter, although that's wouldn't necessarily qualify as orthodox to predictability or consistency. You'll also find that beans roasted and brewed immediately will change in a day or two, requiring allowances for dosage or grind. At my finest grind setting I really chew up those beans, going through stores quickly, not to mention difficulty encountered in any larger amount for blocking the pull. If I want the thickness resulting at a finest grind, simply to dose lighter and watch the pull for overextraction. . . .Granularity, nor is there much to sense alike flour, or, why I paid money for the grinder, no. . .in the first place, to have the ability to go where an inexpensive grinder fails? Of course at lighter S/O roasts anything above changes. . .I'd imagine, being there's grinders and then there's grinders. And, I haven't a $1500 grinder.

Everyone recommends getting a 0.1 gram scale, but... get a scale

It took me almost 2 months to bother to go out and get one, and I wish I'd done it sooner. It's made a huge difference - before I had accurate and precise weight measurements, I had a really hard time fine-tuning the grind. The scale I got was only $16 (from Lee Valley).

If the grinds feel like grit, they're too coarse. If they feel like powder, they're too fine. The feel should be right at the intersection between the two.

That said, "feel" is nowhere near as important as what the flow looks like, how it times, and especially what the cup tastes like.

Nailing down all of these shifting parameters at the same time (not even counting for temp, dose and brew ratio) is part of dialing in every new setup, and involves a lot of iteration to isolate the variables and analyze what you feel, see and taste in a meaningful way.

Getting all this down close enough to just get close is a lot like trying to put your finger on a drop of mercury. The closer you get, the more it seems to run away.

Working on grind is as good a place as any to start. I suggest arbitrarily establishing a target pull time, say 25 seconds, for a target dose weight, say 16g, and brew ratio (dose weight divided by shot weight), say 50% or 32g if you prefer, without excessive "blonding." Once you've adjusted the grind to where you can hit your targets with fair consistency, you can start tweaking for taste.

If the terminology is unfamiliar it would help you to look at the H-B FAQs, or at least ask. If they are familiar, now's your chance to play with the ideas behind them.

In a sense, you're not at the "tweaking" stage yet, or anywhere near it. You're just beginning to "dial in."

Whether it's good news, bad news or some combination... the more your palate opens up, the more critical you become. The more critical you become, the more you feel the need to tweak and adjust to the point where every few hours you critically evaluate your pulls in terms of grinder adjustment.

Hope this helps,
BDL

bwcasolo wrote:oh, we roast our own beans, they are fresh.

istheroastanygood?toofresh?beanssuitableforespresso?blend?so?hard?soft?dark?light?
i'llwageryoudon'tgetaconsistentenoughroastonthesmallfreshroastcapacitytogetconsistentshots*
IFLIKEMOSTNOOBROASTERSYOUCHANGETHEBEANEVERYCOUPLEOFDAYS,IT'SGOINGTOBEALONGHARDROAD

Try Using The Shift Key

* My sample roaster is a Fresh Roast with controllable power and thermometry.
Without those capabilities, you're shooting flies with a cannon.

the beans are consistent, they are espresso beans from sweet marias. been doing this along time. one thing we do well is roast. my wife was a commercial roaster for 20 years.

bwcasolo wrote:the beans are consistent, they are espresso beans from sweet marias. been doing this along time. one thing we do well is roast. my wife was a commercial roaster for 20 years.

Curt, SM is an excellent greens supplier; and it seems your wife is a very good roaster. That's great as far as it goes, but miscela (beans, blend and roast) can only take you so far.

Let's stick with the miscela for a couple of sentences. No matter how long your wife's been roasting there's going to be some variation in the roasted blend because there's variation in the greens. SM works hard to make their many of their blend taste consistent from batch to batch, but they're only human and even their long-term blends like Monkey do reflect changes -- not only from season to season and region to region, but even from farm to farm.

It gets down to what you do with those changes in the one part of the four stage equation over which you have the most control and the most versatile equipment.

Sticking with those beans: A blend with three days rest is different from the same one with five days rest, and they're both different than the same blend with seven days under its belt. Many -- if not most -- competent baristas use grind, time, and brew ratio to find the right balance between bitter, acid and sour taste components while getting good mouthfeel. Developing the palate, experience and skill to make the best possible coffee out of your beans and equipment is no mean achievement.

Equipment makes a huge difference. The Silvia/Virtuoso pair has some real limits. If it's a big step up from your previous machine/grinder than it's likely your palate is going to take a great deal of work. From what I hear, the Virtuous may not be good enough for making serious espresso.

Given the improvements in affordable equipment since Silvia dominated the entry-level scene, you might want to start whatever scheming is necessary to move up to a machine which will allow you accurate and flexible temping, and a grinder which allows at least some fine-tuning grind size within the appropriate espresso range, for instance something like a CC1/Preciso. I'm not saying what you have dooms you to bad espresso -- just that it won't let you approach what those well chosen and well roasted beans are capable of giving.

What do you think?

BDL

thks bdl, first the grind, i agree,i have read those facts about the virtuoso, but i have also read now the newer models are designed to grind finer, properly calibrated. i can grind my beans to a powder, which i have read is too fine, and it appears evenly ground.
so this am i ground coarser, and tamped too hard and had a slower pull. we make americano's.
i just got this new tamp, and it's heavy, and i realize i don't need that much pressure.
so go back to my comment on the powdery fineness of the coffee, how's that sound to you, and what would a better grinder do differently?
i really can't see how it could be changed? the grind look's consistent, to me.
everything is warmed up before the shot. everything.
what coffee would you recommend? green beans. we only roast enough for 4-5 days at a time.
thanks.

I have a virtuoso and a better-for-espresso grinder. I think the important difference is that the virtuoso does not have the ability to make very small adjustments that espresso tweaking requires.

If you look at what differs between the virtuoso, the peeciso, and the vario you will see that one key feature is the precision of small adjustments of grind.