Greetings everyone,

I have read through this site prior to purchasing my Breville 870 (espresso newbie so wanted an inexpensive machine). I have been happy with it using supermarket beans but now have run into trouble once I upgraded into better quality beans (has the roasted on date).

Issue: Espresso extremely sour!

After reading through the forums (sour shots) and watching the tutorial videos (very nice btw), I have tried various recommendations to no success. Essentially, I have come to understand sour shots being under-extracted coffee but even after intentionally over-extracting it's still incredibly sour not bitter. I have tried the following:

• i. Finer grind, higher tamp to the point where the pour is sluggish and the pressure gauge points past the ideal range
  ii. Warm the machine up for longer and pull multiple double shots of water. Increased the temperature setting by +2 degrees Celsius. Not sure the baseline temp
  iii. Using a scale (not 0.1g) to 18 grams
  iv. Discarding the initial pour and stopping the pour manually to avoid the tannic acids (I do think it blonds early)

I was so frustrated by the experience I was ready to switch back to my aeropress but I went to a local cafe and had their espresso. It was so lovely with only the slightest sourness at the end. This has given me motivation to try again. I would really appreciate the advice from the boards. Thanks!

Good for you in that you researched ways to deal with this already!

Too bad nothing has helped. How likely is it that the local roaster simply roasts much lighter then you like? Or is that lighter than? Ugh, you know what I'm asking.

Supermarket beans are different animals, generally aimed to be crowd pleasers. So pretty signs, packaging but nothing special on the inside of the bag. Kind of like some people...

Local roasters can run the gamut from 'turn it black and call it local' to the third wave extreme of super light /fast roasts that have the personality of a screaming 3 year old.

Maybe you liked their coffee on their equipment because they have spent thousands of $ for machines that they can tune to their tastes? I am assuming the beans you bought were from that cafe you mentioned at the end of your post.

And of course I totally forgot- WATER. Water matters. Just read a post on the Londinium forums where someone switched briefly from Volvic water to Evian and everything got sour. http://www.volvic-na.com That result really opened my eyes as to how much we take water for granted.

To help reduce variables you can also try weighing the espresso out as it pours and shoot for 36gm or 30gm. Don't trust the machine to put the same amount of espresso in your cup every time.

Good luck!

Sounds like under extracting - its hard to comment without having some idea of how much water in going through your coffee
Its easier to extract higher by putting more water through the puck//
Back to basics
Weigh in ( get some 0.1 g scales )
Weigh out
Dont dump the start.
Aim for a 18> 36 g output in 25-30 seconds - as an experiment stop by colour
How does it taste
( plus yes check your water as above )

There are two main sources of sour espresso, the beans and the extraction technique. If you are buying quality beans from a known supplier we can rule that out. But, otherwise, getting to a given temperature to finish a roast can be done taking different amounts of time. So, two roasts marked City, for example, can look the same but be different. One can roast quickly using more heat or slowly using less heat, within limits. Using too much heat and too short a time may result in a roast having a sour taste. Using too little heat and too long a time can result in a bitter roast with too little flavour. Somewhere in between results in a roast having the desired complexity of flavour.

As for the technique of extracting, there are two main variables, the dose and the grind. They interact with each other. There is a trade-off between bitter and bright. Bright in some varieties can be taken for sour. To go less bright, grind coarser. But, if you go to far you will get to bitter. Then there is a trade-off between bland and bold. Bland can taste sour with some coffee varieties. To go bolder, increase the dose and grind a bit coarser. Bold vs bland is hard to adjust because you have to change both the dose and the grind.

Finally, make sure your equipment is clean, especially the grinder. Coffee grinds lodged in cracks and crevices can go off-flavour due to rancidity, which can be taken for sour.

Given that you've read up and tried the technical fixes; I'm guessing it may be the coffee. Try the coffee brewed normally (if you do aeropress, use a coarse grind and fast brew time, since the usual technique eliminates almost all acidity). If it is distinctly more acidic than sweet; it is gong to be rough going on an espresso machine. If it is more sweet than sour, we'll go back to trouble shooting your prep.

Thanks so much for the replies/suggestions. Here is where I'm at so far.

The beans themselves.

• They are a lighter roast than the previous supermarket espresso beans. I do prefer medium roasts for my French/Aero-press coffees.
  I used those same beans for my aeropress and the result was a pleasant cup of coffee. There was a slightly higher note of acidity but was NOT unpleasant like my espresso shots. It also had notes of different flavours - slightly sweet, caramel-ish, etc.

Water
I brita filter my tap water and then gets filtered again in the water tank of the espresso machine. Is tap water a no-no? I am not fond of the idea of buying bottled water to use with my espresso machine.

Technique/machine

• Cleaned the machine - took apart grinder, cleaned everything. Backflushed the machine with the included tablet and de-scaled the machine as per the instructions.
  Stopped dumping the start of the coffee
  Weighing 18g of coffee to 36-ish grams of extraction has definitely helped but still too sour.

Results
Sourness has decreased and the crema is darker (and not light coloured anymore). Still too sour to pick up any other flavours in my shots

To do

• Try to extract to 30g of extraction
  Get 0.1g scale
  Try darker roasted beans

Too jittery to try anymore now. Will keep you all posted. Additional tips appreciated! Thanks again

My advice, FWIW:

1. Try down-dosing and grinding finer, 14-16g range, rather than your current 18g
2. Try some darker roasted espresso blends, Redbird and others that are noted for less acidity
3. Try to invite a HBer in your area who has a nice grinder over, and see how much better your shots get with a different grinder

IMO, the grinder will make such a difference that you won't believe it. It may not be realistic for you to upgrade to a dedicated grinder, but at least you would know. In the meantime, as long as you stay away from lighter roasts, likely you should be able to tame the sourness otherwise.

HamnJam wrote:Thanks so much for the replies/suggestions. Here is where I'm at so far.

The beans themselves.

• They are a lighter roast than the previous supermarket espresso beans. I do prefer medium roasts for my French/Aero-press coffees.
  I used those same beans for my aeropress and the result was a pleasant cup of coffee. There was a slightly higher note of acidity but was NOT unpleasant like my espresso shots. It also had notes of different flavours - slightly sweet, caramel-ish, etc.

Water
I brita filter my tap water and then gets filtered again in the water tank of the espresso machine. Is tap water a no-no? I am not fond of the idea of buying bottled water to use with my espresso machine.

Technique/machine

• Cleaned the machine - took apart grinder, cleaned everything. Backflushed the machine with the included tablet and de-scaled the machine as per the instructions.
  Stopped dumping the start of the coffee
  Weighing 18g of coffee to 36-ish grams of extraction has definitely helped but still too sour.

Results
Sourness has decreased and the crema is darker (and not light coloured anymore). Still too sour to pick up any other flavours in my shots

To do

• Try to extract to 30g of extraction
  Get 0.1g scale
  Try darker roasted beans

Too jittery to try anymore now. Will keep you all posted. Additional tips appreciated! Thanks again

How long did the 36 g extraction take..
Grind finer aim for the same 36 g over a little bit longer time

Also try increasing the brew temp on your machine even further. See what happens. Sourness can also be tamed with higher temps.

The Breville 870 was my first machine as well and I also had a very difficult time with "sour shots".

Now I'm not saying my story applies to you but maybe it does. When first getting into home espresso a few years ago I honestly was completely ignorant to what good coffee tasted like, I had no idea. I got into it because I had a friend that was and I really admired the process of making great coffee. I also started with store bought beans and mix that with my inexperience equaled stomach turning drinks. Once I started using a high quality bean, I found my espresso to be what I called "sour". I also researched for countless hours and came to the conclusion I was doing something wrong. I tried different doses, grind settings, temps(yes, higher temps helped), but nothing really made a huge difference. After a month or so I came to the realization that I had just never tasted really good coffee, and what I thought was sour turned out to be the vibrant fruit notes of a real good espresso shot.

Check out this YouTube video about the do and don't of espresso. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci6Gfg8ATPQ

I really like what she says in this video. "Treat espresso like liquor, if you went to a bar and got a watered down shot of tequila you would be upset. You expect it to be strong and intense!" Espresso is the same way and can be shocking to someone that is new to it.

Like I said, maybe this doesn't apply to you. If not, no worries. Best of luck with your espresso!!