Hi,

I'm new to espresso with the mypressi twist v2, and have been struggling with it for the last several weeks, and would appreciate a little help. Sorry in advance for being whiny :p

Bottom line is that I'm ending up with sour drinks. I can't seem to "dial in" anything right. It appears no matter what, blonding occurs very early (about 10-15 seconds in), OR very late at 40-45 seconds. More on this later.

Here is my background:

Not really a big fan of coffee, more of a tea person. A friend of mine got me into coffee several months ago, and I've learned to drink pour over and reverse-french press with mild appreciation - and turns out I actually enjoy the process more than really drinking it, although I have a fairly good palette and can pick up flavors about 50% of the time. Sometimes a little sugar, pinch of salt, cayenne, or drop of milk are fun. I purchase fresh-roasted beans from local roasters (usually portola) and finish up a 12oz bag in about a week (giving 2-3 days for degassing, and stored in air-tight containers). Funnily enough, I had espresso and a "true" cappuccino first time about two months ago at the pasadena intelligentsia location, and it was something most excellent, the flavor, the aroma, mouth feel, so much so that I wanted to repeat it, or at least get as close as I could - my mouth waters each time I start preparing myself a cup in the late morning; I guess it was a life changing moment, to elicit such a strong pavlovian response with only two drinks on a random morning in late March.

I don't have the counter space for a machine or big grinder (I use a baratza virtuoso which I know isn't the best but it works), and after a couple weeks reading, decided I'd try the mypressi twist (I purchased a couple extra baskets, too, to help with successive shots).. Sadly, everything I've tried ends up sour, and I am having a lot of frustrations "dialing" in everything. I have tried a number of combinations, in 2-3 successions each and everything is consistent and repeatable.

Here are a few things I've done:
1. I preheat the water chamber several times with boiling water to make sure I'm getting a hot enough pour
2. I am able to dial in 14, 16, 18, and 20g doses to finish pouring 2oz (by weight) at 25-30 seconds, but blonding occurs between 10 and 20 seconds. I have learned to increase/decrease pour time by either grind, dose, or tamping strength
3. I've tried various combinations of #2 from the whole 2oz in the twist to 1oz ristrettos, nearly each shot ends up being spit out
4. My beans are fresh roasted usually from portola, but I've tried kean and intelligentsia black cat as well; sometimes darker espresso roasts, sometime medium-light roasts
5. If I let the first couple seconds drip away, the drink's sourness is cut by about 70%; however, the resulting drink ends up tasting like weak coffee
6. crema is fine in nearly all situations
7. I use the WDT method for distribution, and get channeling/spritzing about 1 in every 10 shots, only when using a light tamp with a finer grind

I've now pulled somewhere between 100-200 shots with the thing, and have managed to get at least two good ones, which leads me to believe it is possible. I want to like the results!

Thanks for your help..

By the way, I've been waiting for one of those stovetop steamers to arrive in the mail for several weeks (backordered or something), and in the meantime, I've been heating up milk on the stove with my ikea "produkt" wand, and am able to get attempted-but-accidental latte-arts.. which is what I do for fun if the espresso is headed for the drain (the milk makes it drinkable).




...split from Mypressi TWIST - Second Look by moderator...

Hi,

A few things come to mind:

2-3 days is insufficient degassing for many roasts, and that can cause sour/grassy flavors in the shot. You mention finishing a bag in about a week, so have you noticed any change in the shot taste towards the end of the bag?

The Virtuoso, while great for french press, pour over, etc, is not a good grinder for espresso. The grind will be too random due to inadvertent movement of the burrs within the grinder. This may be the cause of the vastly different blonding times you're seeing. We've tried the Virtuoso with the mypressi and found that only about 1 in 10 shots would come out as expected, and it seemed to be a completely random result as nothing else was changed between shots. It was impossible to dial in the Virtuoso, so your frustration is well understood. The Virtuoso Preciso is, on the other hand, an excellent grinder for espresso, and there are many others of course. Changing grinder will probably give you the single simplest, easiest way to improve results.

Are you using filtered water? For example, at our office in San Jose using the local tap water definitely imparts some awful flavors to the shot.

You mention pre-heating several times. Just to check the technique: all you need to do is fill with freshly boiling water, leave for 20 seconds (not more) and empty. The easiest way to do this is with the bowl on the handle. Then fill with the boiling water required for the shot. We've measured extractions with a SCACE after two pre-heats in the 204 range.

Obviously a lot also depends on the coffee. We're big fans of Intelli, but we've had great Black Cats and some that were less so. The blend varies, and so do the results. At SCAA in Houston this weekend we were dropped off a bag of Streetlevel from Verve and it received excellent comments from attendees. It was a Brazilian/El Salvadorean blend that truly sang on all levels. According to our local roaster, Barefoot Coffee, blends with a Brazilian component to them perform very well with the TWIST, so you may want to check on that next time you order.

Finally, if you want an easy-to-test baseline, try filling the coarse (pressurized) basket with 14g of pre-ground Illy medium espresso and pull the shot after two 20 sec pre-heats. You shouldn't notice any sourness, although you won't have the mouth-feel of an extraction from the standard basket, or the many flavor nuances typical of most specialty coffees. It will, however, give you something against which you can compare your other results.

Best regards,
Stephen

Wow, thank you both for the detailed responses! Very much appreciated!

Chris: I clean my grinder every few days, disassemble the showerhead frequently as well (takes only a couple seconds no biggie), use the plastic tamper that came with the twist (I am careful in creating a level tamp), use nutation on light tamps (I don't think dispersion is the problem per se, the shot from naked basket looks like in the videos except for quick blonding), and it's definitely sour, not bitter - my cheeks pucker, and a different feeling than if biting into a lemon rind or brussel sprouts. I had read up here on some "forgiving" blends, and somewhere along the lines I saw Portola come up, whom I had been already purchasing from - but will check again and see if I can find other blends. I'm not necessarily buying "espresso" specific blends, either, just whatever the fresh coffees are. Stephen recommended trying a brazilian blend, and the good luck is that I bought one this last saturday and will be opening it tomorrow - it smells like a more cinnamony and lighter version of a maui mokka, mmmm.

Stephen: I have been waiting ~2 days before opening the coffee, sometimes more. I've noticed that through the ~7 days (totaling 9 days after roasting sorry I wasn't very clear on that before), the espresso becomes smoother and mellower, if it can be characterized that way. I am using straight tap water, which in my area seems to taste very neutral (it's fine with tea and I do have a discerning palate).

Will try to find Illy coffee to test - hopefully it can be had at a local grocery store? I may have seen it at Sur La Table around the corner from my office. Do I need to tamp this, or just fill it up? Most of the preheating would be 2-4 ~15-20s preheats with the bowl on the handle; I go beyond 2 pre-heats if the initial were stretched out too long (read: distracted). I did try just one preheat as in the instructions during the first week of ownership - I'll try it again.

As far as the grinder: I initially picked up the virtuoso because a review I found on coffee geek had pictures showing a very consistent grind, which led me to believe the only reason one wouldn't use it for espresso is because it didn't have as many sub-adjustments. I found instructions on how to make it stepless in case it was needed; but since I'm able to get a 14g or 18g 2oz shot poured in 25-30 seconds, didn't think it was necessary. In retrospect, the pictures of the consistent grinds were probably for the coarser settings. I guess I could get another grinder; I wish there were a way I could test side-by-side with a different grinder before investing any money?? I would be looking into the preciso, since I would want a "jack of all trades" type where I could do other types of brews, since I don't have the space for any more equipment.

Based on what I've read, I'm probably getting a variation of under extraction due to an inconsistent grind with the virtuoso. Does this sound right? It seems as if the baseline test with Illy is needed.

Thank you again for the help, really appreciated I'll chime back in after a couple more tests (brazilian tomorrow, maybe Illy as well).

try to preheat twist better, with boiling water before putting coffee basket into it.
use blends/single origins from good roasters, 4-15 days after roast date (usually the prime is at 8-10 day).
try to use 14-16 grams of coffee for a 30-35 gram drink, maybe grind a little finer.
preheat the cup.

just some suggestions to try

I'd look first to the grinder. I have both the Preciso and the Vario. Either would be a very good choice and would accomodate the swing back and forth between espresso and the other brewing methods. You might think of keeping the Virtuoso for other brewing methodis and using the Preciso or Vario for espresso. You will not have trouble with either although I would buy the Vario if I had the choice. I haven't tried Red Bird espresso with the TWIST, but it is a very forgiving blend and would be worth a try once you have dealt with the grinder.

To Stephen: early this afternoon I tried the illy coffee, medium roast espresso grind, 14g in the pressurized basket, with no tamping. It came out tasting like hotel-room instant coffee with some foam on top, but had only a weeeeee bit of sourness towards the last sips, kind of bitter (think eyedrops going back down your throat). I also gave the brazillian coffee a try this morning (roasted 4 days ago), and while it was sour, wasn't as bad as the previous ones. It was very good as french pull, definitely have that brewing method down, but dag nabbit, I'd like to give espresso a win here at home.

Hal, I don't have room for two grinders unfortunately. Another option might be the manual grinders which many here seem to like and some use with the twist (?), they are fairly cost effective and I could keep them right next to the twist, but I'm not too keen on spending the energy grinding. A drill to it might work, however, there's a restraining order keeping me 100ft away from power tools

Does anyone have any opinions on how/where I could test a "better" grinder in southern california with the twist?

You probably have enough data - both the Preciso and the Vario have been extensively reviewed. If you would get the Vario you'd be through buying grinders for awhile. The Pharos from OE would probably work including with the power drill. Knowing Doug it will be a superb unit - and its close to release. What you do know for reasonably sure is that you won't get there with your current grinder or with pre-ground.

I thought I'd contribute my experiences with the Twist. I used a Twist V1, and then subsequently with some V2 Parts thanks to the great Mypressi customer service, for about 12 months with great success. In terms of routine I would pour boiling water into my espresso cup and then sit the twist water bowl, with screen, on top of the cup and then filled the water bowl with boiling water. I'd let everything warm while I ground and dosed and then put the bowl into the twist and used the twist to spray the preheating water out. I know this might seem like a waste of the cartridges but I still got at least 4 shots each.

In terms of grinders I started with a Zassenhaus hand grinder, purchased in ~2006, and while I was using it I thought the espresso tasted good. Then I switched to a Le'Lit PL53 grinder and I realized what I was missing using the Zassenhaus. The espresso was much better and i started experiencing tasting notes that people on here would post about. I've recently purchased a Hario Skerton for work and tried it once with the Twist. Unfortunately I used a grind setting that choked the twist so I don't have any good data for the Skerton.

Lastly I've had varying success with different blends. Personally, I never had any luck with the offerings from Counter Culture and decent success with Black cat. My best shots were using Redline.

Good luck with the Twist. I really enjoyed it when I was using it as my primary espresso maker.

That's good to know, thank you! The local roaster said he'd be willing to let me try his fancy grinder to see if there really is a different, but he won't have his new shop open for a bit longer and his wife looked rather displeased (though I did buy more coffee from him, sheesh). After reading reviews, etc, I think I'm just going to take the plunge and get the vario-e, like the idea of having things set and it'll let me clear up some cupboard space by removing the need for a scale - have to wait until June.

In the meantime, I tried using the coarse basket with a slightly coarser grind on the virtuoso**, but using same WDT technique and a strong tamp, and I got a 25s, 2oz shot with ~18g of a brazilian bean, 8 days after roast, and it was mighty good. Tasted like a strong coffee, kind of caramelly, without any bitterness and a very very slight hint of tart. The foamy "crema" got to be thin by the time my milk was ready, about a minute, and the cappuccino was actually pretty good. This'll work for now, and I'll report back if I get a new grinder or not. It is clear my issue has been under extraction.

** with regular basket, 10 chokes the twist with 14g, so I use settings 11-13 depending on tamp and dosage (see my second long-winded response). I used a setting of 15 with the coarse basket. I'm not sure the tamping or coarser grind is really necessary, all just a shot in the dark - not going to experiment now as it works and is more than acceptable.

PS: after looking at your handle, I now have the wakka-wakka sound stuck in my head. THANKS :p