Hi. It has been few days since I started brewing with my new La Pavoni, and I am trying to figure out how I can achieve a great shot with it. I think I have pulled about 10-15 shots already and I know it is not that many, but I would like to know why my shots are really sour and salty. My very first attempt, I got really really sour shot and it was not even drinkable. The crema was thin and had light color. So I change things like grind setting, dose, and tamping pressure (not temperature though).

Just note that I use Hario Hand Grinder, and it seems like doing the job although it might not be as consistent as it should be. I use the grind setting of 2-3 clicks from the finest. I consider the grinder as one of the problem but I think there are other reasons to those sour and salty shots. Other note is that my coffee beans are roasted about 5 days ago, and I am using Kenyan bean, and it is roasted about Full City Plus. The final note is that I am not using the plastic tamper that came with the machine. I bought 51mm tamper since my model is newer and uses 51mm or 52 mm portafilter.

So I couldn't really find any difference from by changing dose from 15g to 12g. I found a lot of difference from how strong I tamped and how fine the grounds are. When I tamped lightly it comes out quickly (of course) with thin crema (almost no crema) and not sour but thin taste as well. When I tamped heavily It comes out with good crema (not thick though) but really sour and salty taste. Too sour that it gives me a chill. Also more coarser grind, more thin taste I get, more finer grind, more sour and salty taste.

I have also done the technique called fellini move (sorry if the spelling is wrong) and it seemed like when I have done fellini, the shot became more sour than when I haven't. Also I found that the puck breaks when I have done fellini move.

I got a picture of the puck of when I did the fellini move. (Sorry I forgot to take the picture of pucks when I didn't do fellini but it usually comes out all attached together).


the puck broke after fellini move.


As I mentioned above, my Pavoni is newer version, so it only has one on off switch, and green heating indicator light below. I don't know if this newer one control the temperature or not, but should I be doing temperature control too? I saw newbie introduction of lever espresso machine doing the temperature control trick which you soak the portafilter into a cold water and bring the temperature of a group head down (if I was understanding correct). But I read if shots are sour, you should higher the temperature, so I don't find the reason cooling down the group head.

Sorry for the long write, but this lever machine gives me so many question marks :(

Sourness usually means under extraction if we assume that you're roast is well developed. By raising you're temperature, the water molecules become more active, being able to extract more(less under extracted), if you raise it too much, you risk bitterness.

The hario isn't a very sufficient grinder, I've been having issues even doing pour overs with it. The boulders(large particles) under extract, while the small particles over extract, causing bitterness and sourness at the same time.

The last Kenya I pulled as espresso had an incredible brightness even as a 30+ second shot, I could see how it would be an easy coffee to turn sour.

Ultimately you need a new grinder, but I would updose and grind finer or try to find a sieve for boulders. Also I would experiment with something with less intensity than a kenya

Your sourness is probably a combination of factors. But there is something that will help your Hario grinder.

You can make the Hario Slim or Skerton stepless, which will help a bit. You'll need a posilock/nyloc nut to replace the stock lock nut. An M8 or M6 depending on if you're using a Skerton or Slim. Then you need a small wrench to adjust the nut. If you consider 12 o'clock true zero, espresso range will be roughly around 630 or 7 o'clock...if I remember correctly. It's been a while.

I used a stepless modded Hario Slim a few years ago with a Mypressi Twist when I first started home espresso. So it can be done. But it's far from ideal and requires a lot (a lot of frenetic!) manual grinding.

You can also adjust dose up or down, if you're between steps to adjust flow rate. But the stepless mod will help you get adequate flow for espresso.

Ultimately a better grinder will be your best investment for home espresso. It's always the heart of a good setup.

Those light roasted African single origin espresso's tend to take a higher brew temperature. How long are you letting you machine heat before you pull shots?

Thank you all for replying. I think I have to experiment more and taste diagnosis alot more. For now, I would stick with my Hario hand grinder since I cannot afford expensive grinder, but it sounds like I should change to better grinder sooner. (Also thanks for the hario grinder trick!)

I pulled several shots today, and I needed to pull down the lever with some force for those shots. It didn't go down smoothly. So I assume that the ground was to fine or I tamped too hard? All of those shots tasted sour but dosen't needing of some power to pull down lever lead to over extracted shot?
I usually start pulling a shot when the machine is ready which take about 5-10 mins. I make sure that I heat up my portafilter too.

So can under extracted shot also have darker color crema too? I think the crema got pretty good color and texture but the taste is just really sour.

Grind finer and pull hotter. (Don't worry if the pull slows down beyond the time you'd associate with pump machines; a hard slow pull lasting a minute or more can taste delicious on these machines. If it is truly choking your shot, downdose until the flow is slow but steady.) Keep repeating this adustment until the shot is either balanced or bitter. If bitter, try halfway between the sour and the bitter shots.

A better grinder would make all this much easier, of course.

Hi, so I pulled a shot today too, (I could only pull once since I ran out of beans), and this time I used Brazilian beans instead of Kenyan. It was roasted a day ago, and was roasted lightly.
I took couple photos and a video expecting to get from this forum more specific advice.

*I am sorry that I forgot to measure the temperature of water so that I couldn't tell if It was hot enough.

I increased dose to 15.5grams and it fit into a portafilter quite nicely. I read an article on this forum about preparation (it was called something like WDE??? it talks about stirring and leveling the ground using a needle), and I have done something like that.


tamped. I forgot to take a video of tamping but I tamped a little bit harder. You can see some grounds are remaining on side.


Pulling a shot. I feel like was is over extracted? The shot. It was sour, more like salty as usual. The shot never get bitter. It just gets sourer and sourer.


the puck after a shot.




I don't know if all these information was enough, but hopefully this will help to understand what I had been doing for a while...
Thank you so much.

I haven't looked too deep into this thread, but I just wanted to point out.. Salty flavors generally mean under extraction, they are extremely sharp and punch through milk like crazy.. super hard to disguise. I would pull the shot until it got super blond, or dose lower.. (Never used a pavoni, so I could just be talking.) Pulling to super blond might still have sour tastes, but at least the salty taste will be gone.. could also be temp related.

The shot appears to look OK, think you should start measuring the water temp and shot weights. Did you measure the weight of the shot?
Also, did you check your taste using another machine or espresso anywhere else to see if that also tastes sour? (I battled with sour and salty/metallic shots only to find out that quitting smoking caused the taste perversion)

I just wanted to write my thoughts and observations based on your pictures and video. I hope you do not take any offence with the way I write. I am told too many times that I come out as patronizing and rude at most. Absolutely not my aim. However, when it comes to tactful writing, well, severe lack of talent in that department

1) You raise the lever fully at 20th second, then at 50th second you start pushing down. 30 seconds pre-infusion is way too much. 10 should be ideal starting point since you are new at this.

2) From 50th second, where you start pulling down the lever to end shot, which at 2:12 your total shot time was 82 seconds.. again way too much

3) Stop concentrating on puck. It will differ from bean to bean or blend to blend. But it is also visible from your pictures, that your 1st puck was a result of under dose and your second puck had severe channeling which should be expected from a 82 second shot with fellini move. Most probably your grind was way too fine in that second picture. Try to coarsen step by step.

4) Drop fellini move, it is too early for that. IMHO the most critical mistake beginners make --> jumping into fancy techniques & getting equipment fever without learning the basics first. It's no different than trying to drive a race car without perfecting your driving skills first. You may easily end up crashing to nearest wall. Without perfecting the basics --even if you are not very pleased with end result-- you will never and I mean never fully understand what you are doing and why you are doing what you are doing. Start with universally accepted standards, once you perfect it, from there start tweaking parameters one at a time. I understand you guys see some other guy on forums or youtube etc and they mention about this fancy technique they are using, or they are weighting their grind with the most precision scales, measuring the color of beans, measuring the yield in all unthinkable ways, then VOILA this beautiful shot comes out and it looks oh so appealing.. However, that guy came to that point after perfecting basics with lots of trial error. Also, please keep in mind, even if they present photogenic espressos, that doesn't necessarily mean they taste good. Even if they say it tastes good, always remember "the taste" is relative.

You should ask this question to yourself. Why am I doing fellini move with this shot? What is the reason behind it? Your shot is already too tight, meaning your grind is too fine and your tamp is too hard. In addition you are using a light roast single origin African bean. In the video gritting sound comes from your machine because of the extra pressure you are putting on it and you are having hard time to hold it in one place with both hands. Fellini move is for pulling more water into shot so you get a larger volume, by doing so you change the taste profile. However, you already did not perfect this shot, it would be meaningless to use fellini in this case. Also, since your puck is so tight it is already resisting to water amount you are pushing into it. By raising that lever a second time you are literally crushing the puck, causing channeling. Because your puck is now damaged, water finds an easy way out BUT you are pushing more and thinking "oh now espresso coming better". Unfortunately it is not. It is literally weeping there

5) change your grinder. And unfortunately this is a must. pavoni levers are very partial to grinders, you may go with a hand grinder again, maybe just another brand but not Hario.

6) change your coffee on the long run. Please do not get me wrong when I say this, but if you are a beginner, you should start with a more forgiving coffee and I would advise going with a blend specifically crafted for espresso. Once you perfect everything, you can try your hand at high maintenance coffees.

7) I remember reading another thread where you were having difficulties with plugging your 220V machine to 110V outlet. To make sure I went there and read again. The adapter you are using could be causing performance problems. You said you're waiting 5 to 10 minutes. That time may not be enough due to your adapter and resulting in not heating up to right temperature. You may need to measure your group OR the water temp coming out of it.

All that is said, if you plan to use that Kenyan for another shot or two
Turn on the machine, wait for a minimum of 20 minutes (empty portafilter locked to machine)
after 20 minutes
bleed false pressure from steam wand for 5-6 seconds, turn off steam knob
raise the lever and bleed some hot water into your cup
this time grind couple steps coarser
unlock your portafilter, dry it with a towel, fill coffee
tamp moderately and evenly, do not apply too much force, leave 5mm to 6mm space between your puck and basket rind after tamp
dump the water from your cup
raise the lever but not fully, stop just right before the water get pumps, this way your puck will stay in one place
lock your portafilter to group
now raise the lever fully
wait for 10 seconds
start pulling down applying even force
if there is little resistance in lever, then try grinding a bit finer, if there is too much resistance in lever and shot is taking longer than 25 to 30 seconds then grind coarser, do not change any other parameter
taste each time until saltiness goes
sourness will lessen but it won't fully leave and that is related to the coffee you are currently using but at least the hairs on the back of your neck will have a rest for a while

Best wishes and best of luck!