Hello again all,

I am hoping that someone might be able to point me in the right direction as I'm having a hard time getting everything dialed in where I think it should be. I'm getting pretty good quality shots from my Cuisinart machine but only after modding it.

I got a hold of a Gaggia Factory 51mm Portafilter that fits the PF handle nicely and is perforated all other PF's I have seen. (the pf that came with the machine is a restrictor basket type) I also did the DIY naked portafilter handle mod thanks to home depot. I am now able to see just where my shot went wrong and now understand that I can get channeling anywhere in the basket. This has been a big help.

I am using a Rancilio grinder (old school Lux using Rocky burrs on a composite mount). It's not bad and from what I can see it's nearly the same grinder (burr and mount wise) as the LeLit p53. The chute and everything look the same. So since I got my grinder I have been getting a lot of grinds in the cup. I am thinking it could be from a number of things.

First off I am using a Gaggia Factory basket (which is a lever, and I know nothing about basket design for levers and whether you would normally grind harsher than a vibe pump). The basket holes are fairly large, about on par with my grind size. I am aware that one can push something the size of the hole through the hole, so I have a basic understanding of the physics of what I am doing. But to me if we're grinding as fine as we are we should be pushing most of the coffee through the holes, What I get is about a spoons tip worth of grinds in the cup. My grind is normally around 4ish on the worm drive of the Rancilio grinder, it will only go down to 2.5 before the burrs are very close to contacting or could, I have never run it that small but I did note that when cleaning it.

I am also having to tamp really hard (approx 50lbs +) to get a shot to pull in 25ish seconds. I'm still working on getting the center to not be underextracted, I am not getting channeling on the outsides but the center of the puck is usually not great. The machine does a preinfusion of 3 seconds, but then when it goes to pump the shot some water usually comes out right away. (Along with some grinds) I have tried the slip the cup under after the shot begins will a little luck but it seems grinds still come(and after watching the baskets during the pull grinds are coming through all the time).

My grind it's self seems fairly grainy but I have not tried to grind finer and tamp lighter yet because I dont know if that is actually the direction to go. Reason I say that is with a full double basket I am tamping it down to about 1/2 the volume, but I see others are just about 1/8th of an inch below the top edge of the basket. Most Of the time I get about a 20 second double (but I'm a 220lb guy making my countertop crack from tamping) Is it suggested to drop the tamp weight and fine the grind down? (I am not fully understanding, from a scientific point of view, what is going on when we're tamping 'powder' and then pushing water through it. I guess I'm not grasping what is going on at the water to grind level)

If your shots are running fast, you need to grind finer but there are a lot of other factors to take into account. What is your dose? Are you weighing your doses or just filling the basket and leveling it off. What kind of coffee are you using and when was it roasted. Old coffee will also pull fast and take a finer grind.

az erik wrote:I also did the DIY naked portafilter handle mod thanks to home depot. So since I got my grinder I have been getting a lot of grinds in the cup. I am thinking it could be from a number of things.

Look at the surface that you place the naked PF on, with the 50# tamp. It sounds as if you're setting the basket right on top something, and tamping the pee out of it. Could be that you're smashing some grounds up against the bottom. Clean it well, and then clean the bottom of the basket before locking in.
It's worth a mention...
If that ain't the problem, then it's the grinder. Sounds like you've modded something up a bit? If the grinder isn't doing a great job, it may be giving you lots of different sized grounds,whi9ch would explain why you have fast pours with grinds getting through. Get thee to Cartel Coffee Labs, just S of University on Ash (which is a coupla lights W of Mill) and buy some grounds out of their Versalab. Ask nice, and if it's slow, they can pull you three or four different grinds. Keep them in separate containers, and mark them somehow ('Fine', 'Really Fine', 'Really Really Fine', and 'Really Really REALLY Fine'?) and takle them back to the house to test. Start with Fine, distribute and tamp as normal (except making sure that the bottom of the basket is clean...) and a thirty pound tamp, run two ounces and then filter. Do the same for each, and if you find one that will give you near two ounces in thirty seconds with no significant amount of grounds in the bottom, You've identified your problem. It's the grinder.

Could be that the machine is putting out a lot of pressure, or that the basket is hashed (I was assuming it was new?), but I'd check the grinder first.

Oh, and get a bag of the 'Black Market' espresso while you're there. It's a great blend, and you won't have to pay a buncha shipping on it. 'Lost Dutchman Coffee Roasters' is in your neighborhood, and Victor should be eager to he'p a brudda out.

Thanks for the words of advise Dave and Chris. I am actually tamping on a pressure mat that I made a while back due to the machine making a ton of noise when making a pull. I think the vibe pump came loose in shipping or something, turns out there wasn't enough pressure on the back end to shut the pump up. From what I can tell if it's going to make a good pull I get a good tone out of the pump. If it's going to run fast the pump sounds like it's dry. This mat is actually some kind of flooring insulator they sell at home depot, it's gray and will withstand a decent amount of pressure. I do tamp out side of the group handle due to the odd shape, it'd flop all over otherwise.

I dont believe all of the pressure is being directed to the grounds as there is a bunch of give in the pad and the counter is from 1985, and I'm tamping next to the sink, nice weak spot. I should be closing on my new house within the next 2 months and it will have a dedicated espresso counter and cabinet so it's all out after that. I do make sure to clean everything so it's not the grounds under the basket that I'm getting. I have been working with some (now) 4 week old beans, randomly grind more than I can use in a morn, however I make 4 double lattes or espresso's nearly every morning. If the left overs are enough for a double I keep them in (what appears to be) an air tight little ceramic jar. I know I have to tamp these grinds more due to humidity and age after ground, but I get the same amount of grinds in the cup as fresh.

I has a smaller tamper than the basket and have ordered a better fitting tamper but only to run across the previous posts of being able to tamp a 58mm basket with a 51mm tamper. Difference being I'm not dealing with a e61 group or basket and the shape of the Gaggia basket runs holes right out to the edge. I've only been scooping and leveling as I dont have a scale (nor the desire to get that precise yet). I do tap the basket when dosing with the scoop because I get a somewhat clumpy grind transfer due to the scoop. I have not gotten 'the tool' needed for WDT but attempt to do it with a tap of the pf on the spoon to 'knock level' the dose. It's a 15g basket but by the time I'm done tamping it 1/2 of it is empty. And yes most of the time you can use my pucks on ice.

OK a picture is worth 1000 words, so 10 pics must be worth a lot, so here goes. I've dialed down again this morning and lightened my tamps, I'm getting about the same time and quality and about the same grinds in the cup still so here goes.

Here is the grind


Here is the grinds in my cup...


My tamp pad and undersized tamper:

finshed tamp, approx 30 lbs:


results:


The grinder:

The grinders innards:

Chute and gears look the same as the LeLIT along with the worm gear adjustment

Nakked group handle mod (2 inch hole saw, still need to finish


The puck post pull:


And a video of the shot

Is that small amount of grinds in the cup in your picture really a problem? I have the Lelit grinder and I get a tiny amount of grinds in my cup but I've never considered it an issue.

az erik wrote: I have been working with some (now) 4 week old beans,
If the left overs are enough for a double I keep them in (what appears to be) an air tight little ceramic jar.

I dont have a scale (nor the desire to get that precise yet).

Babbie's Rule of Fifteens:
Greens will last fifteen months if stored well.
Roasted Coffee will last fifteen days if stored well.
Ground coffee will last fifteen minutes, don't store it.
Extracted coffee will last about fifteen seconds, if left unattended! ; >

I use my scale to weigh my doses as I put them in the grinder, and have about a gram or two of waste each day, at the most.

Yeah I would not normally be working with beans this old but little did I realize I just can not go through 5 lbs of different beans in 15 days. (Yay free shipping, but for it to be useful I need to order 4 or so bags, so is tossing out 1/2 of the order worth placing the order?) I'm going to check out the Cartel as I'm about to be out of beans in about 5 days if I can keep up the 6 double's a day I've been pulling. I can see a huge difference in 2 week to 4 week bags so it's a given on the 4+ weeks roast being old. I couldn't help but wonder how old all those bags of SB (either of them) coffe really are. In a local S'best they had like 50, 5lb bags of beans, like they could possibly sell 1/2 that or use 1/2 that in a year. Some of the time lines just dont make sense. I bought a $38 bag of Kona Peaberry from a roaster in Hawaii while I was there. It's in a plastic bag, clear at that. (some were displayed in the glass front window of the building I did skip those) but when I asked how long they figured they would keep, I was told 1 year. 15 days to 365 days is a bit more of a variance than I would expect. I've had the bag since April, unknown roast date and I've yet to crack it open, but I suppose I should as otherwise it just looks good sitting there... hmm display beans.. anyone have artsy beans they dont use but are rather for decoration? I'm new to this game and the random tricks that are pulled, but thanks to places like this I'm learning.

I know working with fresh beans will improve taste but will it actually have anything to do with the grinds? If the LeLIT is known for the cup grinds that's fine. I'm just wondering if there is actually anything that can be done to improve it. Tossing out the last 1/4 of the shot is kind of a waste and putting it in a cappa doesn't do much different, though if I time it right most of the grinds get stuck in the little foam left at the end of a 8 oz latte.

Best pulls I have had to date were Dolce and Vita's that were 4 days old, man that was golden, but dang fresh beans. Problem being with me on the SW of the states some of the roasters are a ways away. Some even taking near 2 weeks to get the order to me due to shipping issues, not one to just throw away money I figured I would bite it and keep pulling shots. Milking most with the occasional straight shot thrown in when it looks extra tasty.

It's not that I am extremely upset with the grinds, just wondering, I got a good mouthful yesterday so I figured I'd ask.

az erik wrote:I couldn't help but wonder how old all those bags of SB (either of them) coffe really are.

You'd be surprised by a few. Most are, well, let's just say that they're not Scottish and leave it at that. OTOH, I once asked a Fourbucks Black Apron about a new Yellow Bourbon that was being bowed, and he wondered why anyone would want to know the roast date. I got him curious, and he got me a bag that was three days post roast. I had to use a gift certificate I had gotten as a gift, so... There is a secret code that tells which of the five *$ roasteries it comes from, and the roast date, encoded in the seal stamp, but I'm not sure that I can still decipher it. Speak to the Black Apron at your local shop, if you really want BuckBeans.

az erik wrote:when I asked how long they figured they would keep, I was told 1 year. 15 days to 365 days is a bit more of a variance than I would expect.

It depends on what your definition of 'good' is. Mine says that once it stops making a great espresso, it's no longer 'good'. Better than no coffee? Yeah, but just...

az erik wrote:I know working with fresh beans will improve taste but will it actually have anything to do with the grinds?

Well, fresher beans contain more moisture, and more CO2, and my intuition (and there are folk here that are more scientificky about all this that will correct me if I'm way off) tells me that it takes a less fine grind on a fresh bean to get optimum pulls at optimum times, and a much smaller particle i.e., finer grind for stale beans. Smaller particle will mean more grounds getting through the basket, yeah?

az erik wrote:Problem being with me on the SW of the states some of the roasters are a ways away.

While it's nice to get great roasts from some of the big dogs, there are fine roasters in Phoenix and the surrounding areas besides the ones that I mentioned. Do some research, find a shop that's using one of the big guys' beans, and buy them from the shop. Their quantity discount means that they can sell you at the same price as the original roaster, and make a profit, and still pay for your part of the shipping. Arizona-coffee.com has some local leads for you as well. I have a decent roaster a bike ride away in Tucson, and a source for PT's and Intelligentsia's beans not too much further.

I'll be sure to check out the locals. So far, close by in SW Tempe I have Steve's Espresso (Who's on this board) and a Seatle something that sells mostly Illy and D&B. The price for the D&B at 12 oz a bag and I believe unposted roast date leads me away from there. Steve's I think has a way to get fresh roast on Friday if you order by Tuesday, Dang just missed it. University and Mill isnt that far from me but I'm realizing even a 600 horsepower truck can't get someone 10 miles down the road faster in PHX. The i10 traffic your still probably suffering from is what I get just driving 1 mile to work now, lame.

Your roaster in Tucson I'd be interested in him, just to see if I know him. I met a guy that said he provided the roasts for Safe House and also have a buddy, Doug Dehaven, who was starting up a roasterie (Is that right?) importing beans from Vietnam and the area. Not sure if Doug ever got off the ground but he did make a few trips there to work with growers from what i remember.

I used to live in Tucson, just moved to PHX in the last 1.5 years due to AOL lays offs back in 07. Spent quite a bit of time at the Safe House on a Friday night. I still got houses in Vail and Marana (the Marana one is up for rent now if ya know anyone haha) and will actually be down there next weekend in a prep for renting it (make sure all the stuff is still there and it doesn't look like a short sale house).

I'm not one to desire the bucks beans, it was just what I used before getting a grinder. Oddly though my grinder grinds far better than their big commercial jobbies, I could get a 1 (out of I have no idea how many # settings) and it would plug my basket (pre-gaggia basket) but a 1.5 would make an almost decent shot. a 3 which was their espresso setting was too coarse for them to get a decent shot out of, so I have no understanding of the numbering.