Chris, the lever that lets a "dose" of beans into the grinder, technically is a doser...I guess.

malachi wrote:Fundamentally (and this is just my opinion), the "thwack" technique is pretty much required if you want to get fluffy grounds (vital for low doses and consistency) and low clump coffee from a grinder with a doser. ... When done right and with sufficient skill and practice, it yields results of equal quality with far greater ease and less time than what you would get from the WDT/doserless approach.

If you have a doserless grinder, with very few exceptions you are going to need to do something like the WDT if you want to get high quality and consistent results. ... The combination of WDT and doserless requires less skill and practice to get good and consistent shots that the doser and Thwack technique, but is more of a PITA in all ways.

I realize that anything I state on this thread can and will be held against me. But nonetheless...

I currently have a dosered Robur and a (ghetto-modded) doserless Major in my kitchen. I use the Robur for espresso and the Major for vac pot, but only because the Robur is arguably the best espresso grinder on the planet. The doserless Major with WDT is faster, quieter, and requires considerably less effort than thwack-thwack-thwacking the Robur. I'll post videos if tangible evidence is needed.

No desire whatsoever to engage in inanimate equine thwacking. Pax.

Hi Cristophe,

I'm not sure why you found the doser unsuited to "thwacking". Just set it to dose consierably less than you want in a dose (this can be exact multiples if you can count fast) and then flick away.

If you prefer doing without it, that's another matter. The grind coming out of the funnel could be fluffier for a number of reasons. Fluffiness is good because it suggests a lack of clumping and a nice volume of air around the grounds. This helps consistent even distribution and an even pour.

If the grinds after WDT are less fluffy this could either be quite simply because they have settled a bit or that there is a problem with your WDT technique - are you using a very thin long needle, for example? If not, that could be the problem. But the aim of WDT is to break up and clumps and distribute the grinds even rather than to fluff them per se....

Finally you mention evenness of grind, which is yet another factor again. Are you talking about how consistently your grinder grinds or how evenly you distribute the grinds in the portafilter basket or something else again?

I realise none of this is much help to you yet, but hopefully it will be as we - and others here with us - try and nail down what it is you could be improving to get the even better results you seek

Cheers

Mike

Chris, I'm talking about vigorous thwacking.

Let me be clearer. Any doser can and in my opinion should be used to aid distribution and any declumping that might be necessary. So you set it up to discharge much less than the dose you require at each sweep. You can then flick the doser to leave and distribute a thin layer. Do that at a snail's pace and it will be less evenly distributed. Do it really fast and you may again end up distributing less than evenly, throwing much of the grinds to one side, especially on the Mazzers. I find calm works better than lethargic and better than frenetic. That's my experience. I got much better distribution and more consistent pours out of my Super Jolly when I calmed down. Much of the above is for Christophe's benefit not yours, Chris. I merrily recognise that I am likely to never know as much about coffee as you are likely to forget.

Anyway, I consequently don't consider thwacking in terms of the noise and vigour the word implies to be anything other than a sort of performance art and for professional baristas just another way of getting RSI.

As for specific grinders: the way the Anfims distribute is not greatly influenced by how hysterically one thwacks or not. I believe the same is true of the Fiorenzato and Compaks, albeit to a lesser extent.

As far as doserless grinders go, I find the Elektra Nino performs consistently with minimum basket preparation and no need for WDT, but I think it is one of the few exceptions and found it interesting to note that John WDTs on his Major, which I am sure he has home modded to perform at least almost as well as the official funnels.

I recognise you have far more experience in the business than I do, Chris, but the above is what I have found from my own experience and I know others who share that assessment. But then maybe you don't consider that thwacking needs to be a machine gun eruption either, whether it's on a Mazzer or an Anfim.

Cheers

Mike

I have often thought about a doser mod whereby a crank would be used to spin the doser mechanism. Any thoughts on this idea?

sweaner wrote:I have often thought about a doser mod whereby a crank would be used to spin the doser mechanism. Any thoughts on this idea?

Ooh Gatling doser! Do want.

Well, I find my doser unsuited because:
* the parts don't move freely, it's slow (1 thwack per second), maybe a little bit of grease would help, but I think the lever spring is too weak anyway
* there are only a few ratchets so the pull on the lever has to be very ample, it's very awkward (are all the dosers like this?)

I didn't like it from the very beginning...
The other reason why I removed it is that the exit chute is horizontal (have you ever seen an horizontal chute?!) and holds about 12g (yes, 12g!) of ground coffee: if I used the grinder as is, I would waste almost 50% of my coffee! It would also be hard to use it with a timer. What a funny design... Without the doser, I can carefully empty the chute every time and rely on a timer to avoid weighing the grind. That's why I'm using it this way.

I understand fluffiness as sort of micro-level evenness and basket distribution as a macro-level one. I'll try to modify my WDT tool with a finer needle but I feel like my technique is creating little clumps for a reason I don't know (yet, of course).

about the gatling doser: a nice solution would be to drive with a couple of gears plugged on the motor shaft

I've had to WDT with pretty much every grinder I've used -- doser thwacking or not -- other than my K10 WBC. I still thwack with the K10, but only because it improves the distribution and lets me avoid finger leveling. I didn't know what I was missing until I started WDTing with my M4, and one of my primary motivations for upgrading to a Titan conical was ease of use. I'll never, ever have to WDT again

another_jim wrote:Practicing one or the other, I'm guessing, makes a difference.

Absolutely. Once you're reasonably adept, the difference in overall effort is negligible.

I happen to prefer doserless grinders, but not because of speed or effort or even noise. If I had to pick just one reason: dosers are designed for dosing, not distributing. They do work as a distribution tool (with thwacking), but IMHO it's a suboptimal and over-engineered solution.