So. I bought and installed Mr. Svendson's thermometer adaptor... and is quite simply the one thing I've bought that has dramatically improved the quality of the shots...

Honestly... Eric. Thank you very very much...

It turns out, I have to flush approximately 2 cups of water through the group before I reach the right temperature, and then immediately lock the portafilter in and pour the shot, otherwise the temperature climbs up and I have to flush again...

Some minor questions though.

In the instructions it says that the difference between the temperature of the water hitting the puck will be 3-4 degrees different from what is measured. I assume that this difference is cooler, so if the thermometer says 206, then I'm brewing at about 202-03ish? is that correct? What is considered ideal temperature?

I noticed on another post that someone said that they brewed when the thermometer says 199, which gives them a 203(?) brew temperature, which confused me somewhat. Or was that a different peice of equipment?

I'm no longer start dumping, with 2 cups of flush volume, the espresso is much much less sour tasting.

Sincerely,

Namson Pham

And a picture, because I'm a picture whore...

Beautiful looking machine!

I was under the impression that the coffee bean itself is a determining factor in the "ideal" temperature. Some beans/blends want a hotter temp, others don't, but I'm also under the impression that 202 is a good starting point and then if you can control your temp in increments you experiment to bring out flavors of the bean or blend.

Yes, the brew temp is expected to be less than what you read on the thermometer. How much so will vary from machine to machine, installation to installation.

It is not so important to know what the brew temp is, but now you have an easy way to gauge the relative temperature. Once you find a good temp, you can tweak with shorter or longer flushes to raise or lower the temp and see what that imparts in the cup.

By 2 cups I assume that you mean 16 ounces.... that's a lot of flushing, but I am not terribly surprised... that's a really big machine. I would be curious to know a few things... I don't think you have ever stated what the boiler pressure gauge reads. I would also be curious to know how long after the sound of flash boiling or visible/audible "water dance" this 2 cups is at.... a few seconds beyond, a few ounces, whatever. Can you correlate a temp reading and an end to the "water dance"?

Just this morning I did some E61 grouphead tc device and scace filter basket device comparisons. I did not log the data (didn't have enough time), but I can tell you that with my machine (Salvatore), the temperature difference varies.

- I began with a long flush to 202 degf on the grouphead tc (probably 10 seconds and 3-4 oz past water dance; total 12 oz water).
- As soon as I stop flushing, the device measured a pop back up to 206 or so before beginning to slip back down.
- It took a minute or so to get to 201.
- I popped the scace in and ran a double shot. The temperature difference was about 0.1-0.5 degf (200-201.5 range).
- I waited 15 seconds after the end of that shot and ran another double with the scace locked in. This time, the temp difference was 2-3 degf (201-203 grouphead tc vs 203-206 scace, excluding initial ramp on scace), and both indicated temperatures rising at the end of the shot
- The more shots I pulled after that (at 15-second intervals), the smaller the variance was. Only once was the scace higher (by 0.1 degf) than the grouphead tc.

What do I take from this?

1) If I am pulling multiple consecutive shots, I really want to have the baskets dosed, tamped, and ready.
2) I am really ballparking/surfing my 2-n shots, with the hopes of being about right.
3) I will need to do an additional 3-5 oz flush if I wait much more than 30 seconds after my previous shot.

Finally, as you can probably already tell, I'm about the least scientific person in these forums. I use this instrumentation to help me develop a routine, to give me a general sense of what I should be doing with my machine. Try to determine the taste of shots at various temperatures, at various stages of shot-making. As previously noted, that is a BIG machine you have, and I'm not sure any of my measurements/advice will help.

I don't think you have ever stated what the boiler pressure gauge reads.

The boiler reads 1.2 bar (roughly)

I would also be curious to know how long after the sound of flash boiling or visible/audible "water dance" this 2 cups is at.... a few seconds beyond, a few ounces, whatever.

The water dance takes 55 seconds to a full minute, at 29-33 seconds the sound of flash boiling water stops, at which point my thermometer shows 212/211. It takes almost another 30 seconds to get the water down to 205, which, as a I understand it now, is the upper range of the brew spectrum (is that correct?). It takes another 15-20 seconds to get it down to 199/200.

A full minute of flush yields a total of 2 cups of water (205 brew temp). I didn't check exactly, but I'm assuming that this means 1 cup in the first 30 seconds and 1 cup in the last 30 seconds. (I'm doing the flush with no portafilter/basket on)

It takes about 5-10 seconds as I empty the metal container that I flushed into, rinse it out, lock the pf in, put a cup under, and brew the shot. Temperature rise is while waiting 1 degree or so, if at all. According to the thermometer, temperature will stay stable throughout the shot.

Try to determine the taste of shots at various temperatures, at various stages of shot-making. As previously noted, that is a BIG machine you have, and I'm not sure any of my measurements/advice will help.

Kanoyu, that was extremely informative. It's probably a good indicator of what my machine should do if I just tighten the inter-shot temperature variance.

I ran my two group at .8 bar to reduce the flush. The thing you have to remember, you are working on a commercial machine that was designed for non stop use in a commercial environment. Under that kind of shot-per-hour load, the cooling flush is reduced to a quick little squirt and then lock and go.

With your lower shot volume, you may want to consider dropping the pstat down a bit. You can get a restrictor for the thermosyphon to slow the group overheating as well. With a large boiler, dropping your pressure down to .9-.8 is the easiest way to reduce the overheat problem. It will drop your steam pressure a little but with that big boiler you should still be in good shape.

Very cool setup, Phaeton. I love the Bauhaus look of that machine.

Just curious, how much trouble was it to install and calibrate the thermometer and adaptor on your machine? I started reading the instructions for the TC adaptor, but I got intimidated. Also, what's the total cost for the adaptor and a decent digital thermometer? I know a really good meter like a Fluke can be expensive, but it looks like you're using an inexpensive digital thermometer. I'd like to have a thermometer to get accurate brew temp measurements on my machine, but not if it's going to be a major expense or hassle to get it set up.

I still don't understand why none of the manufacturers offer a brew temp readout as an option for their machines. They have boiler and brew pressure gauges, so why not a brew temp gauge? Especially for an HX machine, this seems like an obvious way to help amateur baristas improve their shots, since it would take the guesswork out of temperature management.

Beezer wrote:Just curious, how much trouble was it to install and calibrate the thermometer and adaptor on your machine? I started reading the instructions for the TC adaptor, but I got intimidated. Also, what's the total cost for the adaptor and a decent digital thermometer? I know a really good meter like a Fluke can be expensive, but it looks like you're using an inexpensive digital thermometer. I'd like to have a thermometer to get accurate brew temp measurements on my machine, but not if it's going to be a major expense or hassle to get it set up.

Got mine first week of February. Easy to install in a few minutes. Calibration wise my digital thermometer isn't, but is in my head and after the first 5 seconds or so of the shot fairly well tracks Thermofilter temp. Cost wise less than a C Note including digital thermometer, ask Eric his currect actual price. Eric magnanimously is making, or made, some complete with digital thermometers for us that sniveled about the asthetics of a wire sticking out the snout of our E61 group.

Surely the thermocouple adaptor kit can be intimidating because of all the various choices one might have to make. At least I fixed the diameter of the thermocouple one must use.

With the digital thermometer kit, the choices have essentially been eliminated. It sorta saddened me that I just sold the last digital thermometer kit today (until next month when adaptors come in) as I have been swapping them all in and out of Anita and making the same cappy's every morning for some time now. All of these temperature measuring devices behave in the same manner (for a vibe pump E61 machine) as illustrated in the chart below which shows temperatures during the FLUSHING RITUAL ONLY.



This chart is really important as it vividly and accurately illustrates how the E61 grouphead temperatures are varying during the flushing process and in the time period after the flush is stopped. For sure it would be interesting to create the same type of chart for an E61 machine equipped with a rotary pump because the flowrates during the flush are vastly different.

Sooooooo... it was extremely easy to install, and the thermometer is fairly accurate, measuring approximately 1 degree under the real temperature (in boiling water, it shows 211 instead of 212... in my mouth.. yes I washed it afterwards... it showed 97ish instead of 98ish....)

There wasn't any real calibration, I just noted the temperature difference under different circumstances. I didn't pay the extra money for the calibratable one... I didn't think it was worth it. This is fine, and helps me temp surf for better shots.

When I take the machine with me to IU, I will be doing some further modifications on it, maybe installing a thermometer on the second group, insulating the boiler, bringing the boiler pressure down, etc... I definitely need to trade up the t80 grinder for a mazzer, maybe the robur, or at least trying new burrs on it. And I may end up trading up the Fiorenzato for a dual boiler machine either next year or the year after...

I finally understand what (whoever said it.. I think it was Eric) meant when he said that he flushed to 199 to get a 202/203 degree shot, I've been flushing to 202 and that gives me a 205 shot... the shot temperature rises significantly when the water is cooler, and tends to heat up to brew temperature very very fast.

I'm glad I could bring the Thermometer adaptor back to the forefront of conversation again... its a very very useful tool.

Sincerely,

Namson Pham

I'm glad you brought it up too. I had discounted getting the adaptor for the thermocouple because I didn't want to deal with the cord, finding a display, then figuring out how to mount everything. I like the turn-key digital thermometer kit solution much better...sign me up!

So Eric sells the adaptor and thermometer as a kit? Just plug and play? Sweet! That sounds perfect. I was picturing having to buy the adaptor, shop for a thermometer, install the thermometer myself with some clumsy splicing and soldering, then having to calibrate the whole mess to get it to work right. If Eric's already done all the work, then I can't see any reason not to get one. Eric, let me know when you get a new batch with the thermometers installed. I'm all over it!

Received my thermometer adaptor kit and installed with no problem.

For people using this for flush N go technique how are you getting your target temp? I assume you have to flush past your target temp and try to predict how much the temp is going to "bounce" back to the target temp at the GH. This may take some practice as I watched mine bounce back from 5-10 F depending on if the machine has been idle or pulling back to back shots.

What's the difference between this and a PID kit? Eric...does this set up work well on Silvia?

No, the digital thermometer adaptor kit was not designed for nor would it be possible for Silvia. It is designed for E-61 - ish machines having a fully exposed grouphead, i.e. Anita, Vibiemme, Expobar Leva, etc., etc.

You can visit my FTP site for additional info:

http://users.rcn.com/erics/

A very reputable source for Silvia PID kits is:

http://www.pidkits.com/

Thanks Eric. I've been in touch with Jim at http://www.pidkits.com but was reluctant due to the cost $240.00 and lack of great skills to connect it.
Folks on this site seem to think it's better just to upgrade machines than install the PID kit to Silvia.
I'm paralyzed by indecision and have done nothing. Thanks for the reply.

Another round of cheers for Eric's adapter.

I purchased a brand new Andreja and spent a month pulling terrible, awful, undrinkably acid shots. Several hours after installing it, I was able to see that my pressure gauge was underreporting boiler temperature, leading to very low brew head temperature. Bump up the pressure, up goes the brew head temp and the first drinkable shot arrived in my cup.

Super!

Cory

Beavis wrote:Thanks Eric. I've been in touch with Jim at http://www.pidkits.com but was reluctant due to the cost $240.00 and lack of great skills to connect it.
Folks on this site seem to think it's better just to upgrade machines than install the PID kit to Silvia.
I'm paralyzed by indecision and have done nothing.

Having now seen Jim's instructions and the kit contents for the QuickMill Alexia, I think that just about anyone can install his PID kit. While it may not be terribly clear on his website, EVERYTHING should be ready to go, meaning you're not going to be soldering or splicing, etc. I wouldn't let your skillset scare you too much.

PIDkits does have some like new, used controllers for lower cost.

The advantages to the kit are good concise instructions, everything is sourced for you, reversible, and the coup de grace in my mind is the custom enclosure.

All that said, it is a somewhat tough call to make. Silvia sells well used, so should you dump it and upgrade to something better? Or, should you invest in the PID installation? FWIW, you should be able to recoup a good portion of the PID kit cost should you decide to sell the Silvia later. Good luck in your indecision!

Beavis wrote:Folks on this site seem to think it's better just to upgrade machines than install the PID kit to Silvia.
I'm paralyzed by indecision and have done nothing. Thanks for the reply.

If you're happy with Silvia's performance, but want to eliminate the tedium of temperature surfing, Jim's PID kit is a turnkey solution. But of course you know this (Thinking of adding a PID to Silvia).

With Eric's help I installed his type of adaptor on my La San Marco single group machine (built in 1993-Model 85). It has a 5 litre boiler running about 1750 watts with an external pump. I was fortunate that the LSM had a nut on the group head that went down to the water path. The thermosyphon is different from the E61 and behaves much differently then what I have seen here and on CG. I do not have a Scace device since one isn't built for the 55 mm PF.

Here is how mine works, using a thermocouple in a portafilter with a tight fitting sponge to hold the thermocuople right underneath the dispersion screen.

With my boiler at 1.1 bar (250 degrees on my PID'd boiler) I flush to 206 on the adaptor -- then wait 30 seconds. The adaptor reading falls to about 202 during the wait. I start the shot. The thermocouple in the PF tracks the adaptor at 202-201 degrees all the way to the end of the shot (I simulate drawing water through the portafilter for 25 seconds (2-3 ounce). I can vary the beginning temp in the PF by varying where I stop the flush.

I found better tracking and much less of a fall off in temp in the PF by waiting the 20-30 seconds after the cooling flush. Also, I know that it is the relative values that count, however, what surprised me was that the tracking was consistent throughout the entire shot and that I can adjust the intra shot falloff by varying the "wait" period after the cooling flush.