Well, I am pulling pretty terrible shots.

First, thank you for reading this, I really need some advice, and I really want to learn to do the best I can with my equipment, however mediocre some of it may be!

I know some of the problems, and cant figure out the other problems....to begin with.

-I just got a decent tamper, not great, but ok.
-I got a Gaggia MDF in today.
-I practiced with some beans from Gevalia...not fresh but allowing me to approach some understanding of the grind to use on the MDF...I THINK it should be somewhere between the 6-8 steps...but Im not sure and I understand that will vary per bean.

-The one significant problem is that I have a Breville 800esxl. I have the single wall filters (also just came in today). So everything is pretty much in line except, of course, the temp of the Breville. After testing I have found that if I use the steam, then switch to espresso before it purges, let it run a few seconds. Then turn it off and let it purge, then run the shot, I have much better luck at keeping the temp up closer to where we want it.

-After practicing with the Gevalia, and making two somewhat drinkable shots in 1/2 a pound I switched to some 8 day past roast Cashua coffee...

-I didnt have any crema and it was quite bitter, but I am only pulling the shot in like...15 seconds?


-This confuses me because I think with it being bitter and very little cream I should make a courser grinder, yet with it only pulling 15 seconds I think I should make a finer grind and more packed....so....I am stumped.

-What to do?

I wish I hadnt gotten the Breville on one level, but on the other I am having fun trying to make decent shots (and I can only think of one REALLY good espresso shot I have ever had in my life, at the time I didnt even know what espresso was, thought I had ordered a cap until it arrived). As long as they become drinkable anyway I think I will enjoy the experience even if limited, but man I have a long way to go.

(One thought I had is that the rubber base of the portafilter could possibly be causing the flavor...is that a ridiculous idea?)

Different beans require different grinds. You need to grind finer.

when i had my MDF i usually was around 4-6 for the grind setting. Then i did the stepless mod, that helped also.
The Gaggia MDF stepless mod with pictures

the breville uses a thermoblock system, temp is all over the place that will be an issue. play around with temp surfing, and try to read the temp using the styrofoam cup method.
http://www.espressomyespresso.com/ (under how-to's #7)


hope thats a start for you...

workinghard wrote:I know some of the problems, and cant figure out the other problems....to begin with.

-I just got a decent tamper, not great, but ok.
-I got a Gaggia MDF in today.
-I practiced with some beans from Gevalia...not fresh but allowing me to approach some understanding of the grind to use on the MDF...I THINK it should be somewhere between the 6-8 steps...but Im not sure and I understand that will vary per bean.

-

It's almost impossible to dial in the grind for one roast by using another even when both are fresh. You certainly cannot dial in the grind by using old beans. That makes as much sense as a major leaguer getting his 6-year-old nephew to give him some batting practice before he faces Cliff Lee. There's that much difference between fresh coffee and stale coffee.

Tamper is a doodad, not all that important. With a capable grinder and the proper setting, good distribution technique, the proper dose, and freshly roasted coffee, your thumb will suffice.

Most likely your grind needs to be finer. I am wary of going from steam to brew as a surf technique. Just be sure to pre-warm your machine 20-30 minutes, and run a few ounces of water through the group as well. Too hot a brew temp will result in undrinkable shots. >:#

I've seen the newest Breville in action (includes a grinder), and it is actually pretty decent, so I think your machine is quite capable of very drinkable shots.

I would work on your dosing, distribution, and tamp. If your shots are blonding early, then barista technique is likely a contributing factor to the fast pulls you are getting.

timo888,
I to have a Breville 800 but I am waiting for my Mazzer Mini to arrive for the last 8 hours I hope it gets here soon, darn Fedex Home Delivery

So I should use my best coffee to try and set up my grinder and espresso machine?

I have been playing with some coffee I dont like setting up the machine now you say I should only use the good stuff even if its the first few times trying to time the Golden Rule???

I am sure I will be through many shot down the sink I bet so my plan is to use the old stuff to get close and then use the good stuff your saying just use the good stuff???

hey, I really appreciate everybody's advice. I will test out the cup measurements as soon as possible...my wife is angry I spent so much time with the machine last night, so its probably best not to do that today.


I am still stumped though...I keep getting over extraction yet, 10 second singles....going to have to head back to the basics of dosing, distributing, etc. It just so weird because a 4 clogs the machine, and a 5 runs through in less than half time. I know it is stepped, but it really shouldnt be that big of steps based on peoples reviews and comments. I think I must be doing several steps wrong.


As to the grinding, what I means was that I was grinding from 4-10, just to see how the machine handles them, then I could get an approximate of what to expect when I start dialing in with my good beans. But with my other problems, that has been ineffective anyway.

Yes, dial in a kit with good beans. Using old coffee to dial in a machine is pointless. The only thing those old beans are good for is breaking in a set of burrs and compost for the flower bed but not for drinking. Your variables, all of them, will change when you go to fresh coffee so using stale stuff is an exercise in futility.

workinghard wrote:I am still stumped though...I keep getting over extraction yet, 10 second singles....going to have to head back to the basics of dosing, distributing, etc.

Sounds like old beans. When were they roasted, not bagged or opened but came out of the roaster. You should be looking between 5 and 10 days.

Johnny Kleso wrote:So I should use my best coffee to try and set up my grinder and espresso machine?

I think timo888 said it very well, but I'll put it more bluntly: Economizing by using cheap coffee while learning is regrettably one of the most common mistakes new home baristas make. Fresh coffee is much, much easier to dial in than past-prime coffee because, as you said yourself: "a 4 clogs the machine, and a 5 runs through in less than half time." A grinder's setting in the espresso zone for post-prime coffee is razor thin, which makes a stepped grinder doubly difficult to use.

Most coffees are in their prime between day 4 to 7, though some peak later around day 10. Of course, lest there be any doubt, I refer to the actual roast date, not the day the bag was opened (or as Starbucks says, the day it was "freshly scooped" ).

Thanks for the vtips, I need to get some more fresh roast, but it arrives once every two weeks at a store near my house. Cashua Coffee roast per order, so when it comes to the store it has a sticker and the days past roast written on the bag. I could order it directly, but then I would have to pay shipping, plus they charge 1 extra dollar just per lb from the roaster! Not sure why it is cheaper in store....
I probably have about 2 more doubles of the good stuff left, and then I will be out...guess I will have to wait until next monday, plus a couple days resting

Thanks for the tips.

I found this place online and is only 60 miles from my house and want to give them a try once my two cans of Illy run out.. 5lbs for $26 and free shipping on orders over 5lbs (stated on shipping page)

Also, thanks for the tips on the styrofoam cup. I had heard about it but wasnt sure how effective it would be. After five tests tonight I have produced 5 results of 198-199 degrees. Looking fairly consistent, though only for one night. Does imply, though, that the fault either lies with me or with the pump pressure. Try some of the fresher beans tom. and update this post then.

Brian, you seem determined to use your old beans. I hope not. Simply put, dialing in your machine with your old beans is fine! As long as you then drink the coffee you make with those old beans. As soon as you get fresh beans, you will have to dial in your machine all over again for the fresh beans . . .

In other words, dialing in a machine using old beans sets that machine up to use those old beans.

workinghard wrote:Thanks for the vtips, I need to get some more fresh roast, but it arrives once every two weeks at a store near my house.

And -- just curious -- what do you do if you run out in between shipments?

workinghard wrote:Cashua Coffee roast per order, so when it comes to the store it has a sticker and the days past roast written on the bag. I could order it directly, but then I would have to pay shipping, plus they charge 1 extra dollar just per lb from the roaster! Not sure why it is cheaper in store....

Typical US retail traditions would have it be the same price, not more expensive. A simple telephone call to the company would answer that question. It shouldn't be more money. 803-467-2003 or 843-455-7883

Cheers,
Jason

Quotable Quote wrote:"Dialing in the grind by using old beans makes as much sense as a major leaguer getting his 6-year-old nephew to give him some batting practice before he faces Cliff Lee. There's that much difference between fresh coffee and stale coffee." --Timo888,

First making Espresso is not playing Baseball a team sport.
If I never picked up a bat in my life would practicing with my nephew help if I had to go up against Cliff Lee?????

I think so.... Better than NO Practice at all.

So if I never brewed espresso before, ANY EXPERIENCE WOULD BE HELPFUL better than none at all.

Java Joe wrote:Better than NO Practice at all.

So if I never brewed espresso before, ANY EXPERIENCE WOULD BE HELPFUL better than none at all.

I doubt it's even worth observing that the bit you quoted talked about a major leaguer practicing with his nephew, not someone who'd never picked up a bat. Rather than dissect an analogy, I'll share a story from the first day I had my first espresso machine.

Due to a fluke of how order/ship dates lined up, my Classic had arrived a week before I could hope for my grinder and burrs to arrive. The old grinder in my kitchen wasn't even close to capable of grinding for a pump-driven espresso machine. Being of the same opinion you just expressed and being very anxious to make sure my eBay acquisition was basically functional, I walked down to Murky Coffee and bought 12oz. of fresh CC Espresso Toscano. And I asked the person behind the counter to grind them for espresso for me. (As a happy aside, she was decent enough to convince me to only get half the bag ground. I think she ground less than that.)

I knew using preground beans was suboptimal, but I just didn't understand until I tried it out. The only liquid I got from putting that in my machine and running the pump was completely undrinkable and did not particularly resemble espresso. Some of it wound up in my cup, and the machine sprayed some of it across my kitchen. The attempt left me very unhappy and concerned that my machine might not work.

The thing I had overlooked when I calculated that suboptimal was better than nothing was that someone making espresso for the very first time is wholly unequipped to work around stale or incorrectly ground coffee. Today, I wouldn't bother trying, but could probably turn it into something that at least superficially resembles espresso. i.e. I could have at least convinced myself that the machine was not damaged. Of course, I could convince myself of that without wasting coffee now that I have a decent understanding of how the machines work...

I learned at least a couple things from the incident:
1. Espresso is just a nasty mess without the right ingredients.
2. I owed that barista about a $6 tip next time I saw her. Not giving me what I asked for was a great act of kindness that gained me a few good press pots.

I didn't gain any positive knowledge of how to prepare good espresso, though. YMMV of course

Java Joe wrote:So if I never brewed espresso before, ANY EXPERIENCE WOULD BE HELPFUL better than none at all.

You're absolutely right - in that you would then have some experience in HOW to dial in a machine (Oh, so that's how you do it . . . ), in how the buttons/switches work, and so on. It would not give you any experience in pulling a great shot, in helping you to recognize a great shot, etc., etc.

And let's not overlook the fact that Brian is handicapped by his Breville . . .

Cheers,
Jason

If I am a Noob with little or no experience IMHO.

Grinding 100 year old pinto beans and seeing how different grinds effect the golden rule times is helpful.

If I have a 100 years of experience making espresso grinding 1 month old coffee beans is worth beans in experience.

You have to consider the OPs perspective not your own.

Java Joe wrote:If I am a Noob with little or no experience IMHO.

Grinding 100 year old pinto beans and seeing how different grinds effect the golden rule times is helpful.

In case it wasn't clear, my story above in my last post was from the first day I ever touched an espresso machine. Noob with no experience describes me perfectly in that context. About a week later, my grinder arrived. The burrs took still longer to arrive, then I had some difficulty cleaning/refurbishing it and installing them. (I had to hunt down some metric bolts that were hard to find around here.) By the time I was ready to go, I had no fresh coffee. Murky was out of bulk beans to sell that day and I didn't know of any other good source of fresh beans at the time, so I decided to try some stale supermarket beans that I had around the house, thinking it would be helpful.

Even ground as finely as I could adjust my nicely cleaned commercial grinder with brand new burrs, the result was awful. The brown liquid that spewed from my machine filled a demitasse in under 15s and was full of fine particles of ground coffee. It was still a mess (though not as bad as my first attempt with the pre-ground coffee) and still didn't bear even a vague resemblance to espresso. This effort strengthened my erroneous belief that there was something wrong with my espresso machine. There wasn't.

A couple days later, Murky got a fresh delivery. I bought some, and started learning to dial in my grind and technique. Once I was disabused of the belief that something was wrong with my equipment, the only thing I had learned by using stale beans was that they were not worth the trouble. That's certainly a valuable lesson, but it didn't teach me anything about the right way to make a good espresso drink using my equipment...

I guess I did learn about cleaning coffee-gunk from my machine, though

I'm sorry you found no learning experience at all from grinding stale beans.
I am sure companies like Illy would be in shock to read this as they only sell stale beans.

I think I would have learned something if I was using sand as ground coffee just going though process purging, measuring and tamping checking effects of coarse over fine sand and how long it takes to pass though PF but not everyone has the same learning capacity. So I see things differently.. Be Good Java Joe