Java Joe wrote:If I am a Noob with little or no experience IMHO.

Grinding 100 year old pinto beans and seeing how different grinds effect the golden rule times is helpful.

If I have a 100 years of experience making espresso grinding 1 month old coffee beans is worth beans in experience.

You have to consider the OPs perspective not your own.

Look, Java Joe, you're really missing the core point and it has nothing to do with point-of-view. The point is to recognize that the grinder must be dialed-in for a particular roast and indeed for a particular roast at point-in-time— it's a shifting target. That dialing-in simply cannot be done using another roast, let alone a stale one. When it comes to making excellent espresso, there really is no "in the ballpark" with the grind.

+1

I think my point of view is going right over you your head. You refuse to understand how some people learn to do different things including making espresso. You seem to think everyone is an noob or an expert and no in between from what I read.

So how does one gain this experience to be an expert?
Maybe like baseball players who have played ball since 5 years age practice every day with Fungo Bats (old beans) and Hitting Donuts (old beans) and pitching machines (old beans) all of which is not Cliff Lee (fresh beans) giving the practice for batting against Cliff Lee (fresh beans).

Is the best way to learn how to hit Cliff Lee to face Cliff Lee? Of course it is, can you learn anything from batting against anyone else? Not if its you but other can, thats why they make and sell batting machines for people to practice.

The OP asked about setting up a grinder and a machine how many days till he is an expert?
Since you have all the right answers
How many shots does it take before your grinder is tuned in?

Experience Level
Noob just bought my first espresso machine never pulled a shot.
1 year
5 years
10 years

Java Joe wrote:I think my point of view is going right over you your head. You refuse to understand how some people learn to do different things including making espresso. You seem to think everyone is an noob or an expert and no in between from what I read.

I think my point of view is going right over your head. So let's reset. Let's assume, for a second, that the goal of purchasing all this equipment and putting the effort into learning how to use it is not to learn which knobs and switches cause the machine to emit what quantity of espresso-looking hot brown water in how many seconds. Instead, let's assume that the goal is to make espresso (and espresso-based drinks) that taste good. I'd like to make these assumptions because, if your goal is the former, I just don't see the point.

So, assuming a new home barista wants to learn how changes in technique and equipment settings influence the taste of the resulting beverage, is it easier to learn this by using good ingredients or by using stale ingredients? In my personal experience, the answer was unambiguous. Stale ingredients impeded the acquisition of this knowledge. They did not accelerate it. Good ingredients have made the part of the learning curve I've traversed thus far easy and fun.

As a result, in my opinion, by suggesting that people new to the craft of making espresso stick with ingredients that are both more expensive (in the case of the canned Illy beans you mentioned) and not fresh, you're making it more difficult for them to learn how to make good espresso. Am I missing something? How is this helpful?

Edit to add: I still consider myself more noob than expert. I just don't see how using inferior coffee could make my path easier in any way! On those occasions where I've tried it, it has been most unhelpful.

Java Joe says: How do they say in Italian, Ga-ba-dost (thick head)

Java Joe: You just got here, already starting confrontations? I don't post much yet have more than 4 years of experience with espresso, roasting, and about every method of brewing. Why? Because many members here know so much more than me. My advice, do as we all do when there is someone more experienced: shut up and listen. Ask questions and be prepared for honesty. BTW, I thought Timo's analogy was right on.

Java Joe wrote:Java Joe says: How do they say in Italian, Ga-ba-dost (thick head)

Summary: The OP has been offered good advice. You've expressed your contrary opinion. Others didn't agree with your advice, explained why, and you called them thickheaded. That sort of narrow-minded, disrespectful interchange isn't welcome on this site.

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As a beginner I can say that using old throw away coffee has value. Not for long and definitely not for tasting, but say on first day.

I used old beans to get comfortable with the machine and mechanics. How does my grinder works? How does grind affect flow on my machine and how it relates to quantity of coffee used? Note these are just for reference and to gain some level of comfort with equipment. I did not taste the coffee, I observed what happens.

I also practiced my tamping this way on first day. Dose, tamp, brew and observe. Throw away coffee.

So the goal in this first phase for me personally was to get comfortable with equipment that I have and to have some first hand experience of how different parameters related. Nothing more. Taste has not played into this. I don't think that using fresh coffee would help me in this "mechanical" part of learning...

Once I've done that I switched to fresh coffee that I use for all further exploration and learning. Perhaps thanks to this first learning part I have good luck with pulling good shots right away. Yeah I had to dial in for the fresh coffee, but still, I am amazed at how quickly I was able to pull good drinkable shots. It helps that Alexia is forgiving and Vario is good grinder

The breville has tremendous high pressure and super low temperature. The odds of getting anything good are very small. However, for those that like to go the extra mile, there are two options.

To increase the temperature you have to let the steam go for a minute. It is not pretty but it is all you got. Then do the shot.

To decrease the pressure you have to buy a speed router control thingy http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d...mber=43060 Plug the machine to the router control box and use the knob to lower the pressure.

Good beans and grinder are also important. With the breville you have a life time challenge ahead of you.

You can use a few ounces of stale beans to put the grinder into espresso range. You need a point of comparison: a few ounces of beans that have been ground for espresso by a good shop, so you can make visual comparison. You don't need to make any espresso at this stage. This is a crude, ballpark adjustment. You simply want the grind to resemble the grind from the shop, in granularity.

Once you have your grinder in espresso range, then you must truly begin to dial it in for the roast you intend to drink, for at this second stage you must make and drink the espresso in order to judge the grind properly. Visual inspection won't be the primary mode now. Now you're fine-tuning the extraction. At this stage you must switch to fresh beans. It is an utter waste of time to attempt to fine-tune the grind using a roast other than the one you will actually use.