The idea is to get blind shots that pour identically.

Again, just because the grind settings are different doesn't mean the grind is different -- it could mean less beans are feeding through and there are fewer bean to bean breakages for a given burr setting.

You can keep the grind identical and change dose as you switch from filled hopper to single dose; or change grind and keep the dose the same. Either way, the pour should stay the same, otherwise it's not a good comparison. I think changing the grind setting is the preferred method, since when comparing multiple grinders, functionally identical grind settings is those that have the same pour characteristics for the same dose on the same basket and machine. This definition would also apply when switching between grinder states.

michaelbenis wrote:PS: FWIW my experience squares with John's, that the grind gets coarser towards the end of the single-dose shots without bean weight above.

There is the distinct possibility that the experience that I had parallels both of yours and the I am remembering it differently. I know that I experienced a change in the pulls (it was a fair while ago) that was obvious enough to get me to change my technique, but I could be remembering a short shot where there was a long one, or vice versa.
I bow to your more recent and more scientific experimentation, and your probably more dependable memories.

From a logical standpoint, you've got it right. It makes sense that a longer grind, with beans bouncing around in an almost-empty hopper, would generate more fines. More fines should result in a slower flow rate and increased shot timing. I was surprised to see it turn out the other way.

another_jim wrote:The idea is to get blind shots that pour identically.

+1. Ideally, you'd take two identical grinders, adjust one for a bean mass in the hopper and the other for single dose grinding, then compare the resulting shots. With only one grinder, it will be harder to get meaningful results, because of the need to switch between two grind settings. Given the difficulty in reliably detecting small differences in blind taste tests, I never bothered.

another_jim wrote:Again, just because the grind settings are different doesn't mean the grind is different -- it could mean less beans are feeding through and there are fewer bean to bean breakages for a given burr setting.

I'm assuming there will be differences in particle size distribution, even when the grind is adjusted to produce "identical" pours. Given the gross differences in pour characteristics*, this seems like a reasonable assumption. I eagerly await evidence to the contrary because, quite frankly, single shot dosing is more convenient for my espresso usage patterns.

* Clarification: when the grind setting is not adjusted.

I know how you feel about wanting single-shot to work. I feel the same, especially with my Super Jolly. Of course, referring to another thread, it may work "well enough"

Maybe that's Jim's point.

The Mexican I get from Londinium is quite a forgiving bean. if I get similar pours from penultimate and last/singe-dose with it again, I'll report back. Otherewise I'll need someone to lend me a SJ or Nino with burrs that have the same mileage as my own

RapidCoffee wrote:Given the difficulty in reliably detecting small differences in blind taste tests, I never bothered ... I eagerly await evidence to the contrary because, uite frankly, single shot dosing is more convenient for my espresso usage patterns.

Yep Michael, this is my point; or more exactly, as far as I will concede to popcorn alarmists.

A taste test that detects small differences takes several weeks. The reason I never did this is simple. The added pleasure I get, via single dosing, of having four or five different coffees "on tap," outweighs a difference this small.

another_jim wrote:A taste test that detects small differences takes several weeks.

I'm nearing the end of a couple of weeks of Caffe Fresco Black Hand frozen in 125g lots removed every day or so to ensure optimal freshness. Is that long enough? Am I nuts that no combination of changes in grind or dose for the last bit will equal the last couple of weeks. I've tried on 2x grinders by 2x machines by 15+ coffees since I got the MXK in January '09. You tell me, I was never able to attend "University of Expertise in All Matters Coffee" PAX

To quote the missus, when I change blends, "Gee, this isn't as good as yesterday" through "Better, but not as good as last week" and eventually back to "The lattes for the past week have been outstanding."

Many years ago, I kept between 30 to 50 malt whiskys 'on tap', much to their detriment. No more. Maybe I don't have a palate sophisticated enough / adequate equipment to tweak a roast with interveners. I am certain however that I've been enjoying endless, no brainer, upper pantheon shots with a minimum of hassle.

Different strokes :
The frustration of single dosing four or five [actually n to 2^n depending on the remains] different coffees, never really getting to know one, is just not worth the extra prep hassle. BTDT.

It's uncharitable to denigrate those that appreciate the subtlety of coffee ground as designed as 'alarmists.' They, in reality, must be correct. Why else would Ken Fox have 4 grinders?

Well, I don't know. There is a risk I will end up with more grinders than brain cells (not a difficult feat), but I love starting the day with a Sidamo or Yirg and then moving onto something darker and deeper later on in the morning or after lunch. If people come round for dinner, it's also good to have some decaf, especially a stunning water-processed Costa Rican decaf I've been getting from Londinium, which is a wonderful experience in its own right (and is sadly about to run out).

So that's three grinders. Or one with low grind retention and a large sweet spot maybe....

Hmmm. I have one of them....

I ran two doses of Sid through the SJ this morning and I'm convinced the first (which I drank second) was slightly more nuanced than the "single dose" final shot, but I could have been putting my tongue under the spell of my thinking/superstition.

The important thing, however, is that both shots were great. I'm still enjoying the aftertaste.....

For those who have observed a difference in loading bean mass vs. single-dosing, have you noticed a difference in both singles AND doubles?

-s.

Very good question. I only drink singles. But I could be persuaded to experiment