I need suggestions as a newbie espresso maker! I recently got turned on to coffee and as usual got carried away with learning and doing. After a chance conversation at a meeting in August, where I learned that it was possible to roast your own, I bought a stove top popper and proceeded to roast about 20 pounds of Sweet Maria's beans before I had to have a Behmor 1600 and I've done about 75 roasts in the Behmor since early December. My Rocky doserless and Andreja Premium arrived in the middle of February and I have learned to adjust the Rocky to the bean age (I'm amazed at how much finer you have to go as the bean gets older) to get a consistent 25-30 second double with approximately the right volume. I use the WDT, so I dose into the portafilter with a yogurt container and use a dissecting needle to stir. I level with the wooden handle of the dissecting needle by going four different directions. Using the SS tamper, I do a light nutation and then a press of about 40 pounds, followed by a light (tamper weight only) polish. The level is right at the ring of the double basket. Looking at the bottomless PF, the extraction looks good. It consistently starts dark and slow, has tiger stripes and blonds right about 2 oz. Crema is thick, usually reddish and has dark flecks. Problem is the shots are really harsh! I thought it was my flush technique (wait for the dance to stop and then run about 2 more oz.). Because it takes me about about 2 min to grind, WDT, tamp and load the PF back into the Andreja, I figured that I needed to flush again, load the PF and then wait between 15 and 35 seconds (tried both) before pulling the shot - that didn't help. I've tried ophiolite, liquid amber and donkey beans including the liquid amber roasted by SM, so I don't think it's my roasting. I'm not sure what else to try - all I can think of is reducing the brew pressure from the way it was set at the factory, because I've read that that may cause the water temp in the brew group to change more slowly. I want to experience those sweet shots that you all rave about. I realize that I'm being impatient (can't expect to be a pro in 3 weeks) and I will keep trying - but suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks! Mac

Your shots seem well made by the way you describe things.
"Sweet" and "harsh" are very subjective concepts. Have you ever tasted those "sweet" shots in cafes or at friends? If you have then you should try those same beans. If not...probably your expectations are unrealistic.

Define "harsh"

Bitter?
Acid?
Astringent?
Burnt?
Sour?

What do they taste like?
Ammonia?
Turpentine?
Lemon?
Asprin?

What is your brew pressure set at right now? If it's up above 9 bar, you might want to adjust the OPV to 9 bar or a bit less and see if that helps. My Anita, which is very similar to your Andreja, was set a bit high from the factory. I reduced brew pressure to about 9 bar, and I'm much happier with the results.

There may also be problems with overextraction. Are your shots taking a really long time to pour, like more than 40 seconds? Sometimes you can overextract the oils from the coffee if you grind too fine and the runs takes too long to pour. This can result in a very strong shot that you would perceive as being harsh.

Temperature could also be an issue. Sounds like you might not be flushing quite enough water before the shot. Try flushing a bit more, wait 20 second or so, then pull the shot. If it's bitter, the water is still too hot. If it's sour, the water is too cold. Keep experimenting until you get the taste you are looking for.

Really, it's hard to be sure what's going wrong because there are so many things that could be causing the problem. Welcome to the joy of making espresso. It can drive you nuts, but your equipment, beans and techique are all solid, so you should get good results eventually. Be patient and try to enjoy the ride.

Have you done a reality check on your home roasting yet? Order espresso blends from top roasters and try them on your set up.

Well, those blends usually get me a nice, sweet shot. How far are you roasting them? Try going a little lighter to improve sweetness. Have you tried Ethiopian Kebado or Sweet Maria's Monkey Blend? These are also great choices for a nice, sweet cup. How long are you letting the coffee rest after you roast it? This is pretty important too!

Distribution is important. You mentioned the steps you go through, but how are the extractions with your naked portafilter? Is there any channeling?

Temperature is important. Do you prepare the baskets while keeping the empty portafilter locked into the machine to keep it warm? You may even want to pull a blank shot to let everything get to temperature. Temperature is critical, so having a cold portafilter acting like a giant heat sink is going to mess with your extraction.

Drop your dose down. When a blend is making your shots too harsh, this will often help. Try dropping your dose to around 14-15 g. Do you have a scale? If not, you can count how many seconds it takes to fill the portafilter and reduce it by 25%.

calb wrote:Your shots seem well made by the way you describe things.
"Sweet" and "harsh" are very subjective concepts. Have you ever tasted those "sweet" shots in cafes or at friends? If you have then you should try those same beans. If not...probably your expectations are unrealistic.

Thanks, I guess I need to taste around more. Most of the places I know use automatics and I wanted a real barista so I went downtown Dayton this morning and had a shot and bought some beans at the Boston Stoker. I wouldn't say the shot was "harsh" but I wouldn't call it sweet either - it was kinda one-dimensional or flat. The young barista told me that two of the beans were roasted to vienna and the third was to French, so that probably explains the lack of complexity.
Mac

malachi wrote:Define "harsh"

Bitter?
Acid?
Astringent?
Burnt?
Sour?

What do they taste like?
Ammonia?
Turpentine?
Lemon?
Asprin?

I guess the best description for harsh is burnt-sour-bitter (although I can't decide which predominates) and the taste would be oily-turpentine. Does this mean more to you? I did pull one of my best shots this morning which was much nicer, but not a real yumm! Thanks for pitching in! Mac

Beezer wrote:What is your brew pressure set at right now? If it's up above 9 bar, you might want to adjust the OPV to 9 bar or a bit less and see if that helps. My Anita, which is very similar to your Andreja, was set a bit high from the factory. I reduced brew pressure to about 9 bar, and I'm much happier with the results.

Thanks, I'll see if I can figure out how to reduce the brew pressure - it's 10-10.5 now.

There may also be problems with overextraction. Are your shots taking a really long time to pour, like more than 40 seconds? Sometimes you can overextract the oils from the coffee if you grind too fine and the runs takes too long to pour. This can result in a very strong shot that you would perceive as being harsh.

No, not really. I expect the shots that take a long time to be bad. I'm talking about the ones that are within acceptable limits.

Temperature could also be an issue. Sounds like you might not be flushing quite enough water before the shot. Try flushing a bit more, wait 20 second or so, then pull the shot. If it's bitter, the water is still too hot. If it's sour, the water is too cold. Keep experimenting until you get the taste you are looking for.

I think you are right about the temperature. 2 minutes preparation was too long after the flush. I had a much nicer shot this morning about 30 sec after a reflush. Question is - should the PF be in the group during the 30 sec? A young barista I talked to this AM suggested that you should start the shot right after putting the PF back in the group head or you might cook the coffee.
Thanks for your response.
Mac

sweaner wrote:I was also going to suggest ordering some professionally roasted beans.

Maybe some MVP blend from Paradise? Maybe Toscano from Counter Culture.

Another suggestion is to get the group temperature monitor by Eric from Chriscoffee. That has really helped me get temps right, or at least close to right.

Thanks, I will order some beans. I have looked at a couple of ways to monitor group temperature - that should help me a lot. Obviously you like the one Eric did and I'll check it out again.
Thanks,
Mac

another_jim wrote:Have you done a reality check on your home roasting yet? Order espresso blends from top roasters and try them on your set up.

Thanks, Jim. I'll do that. I'm really happy with my roasting for mokapot and drip. I've nailed the blueberry in IMV and really like the boldness of Kenyan's. It could very well be that I need to roast differently for espresso, but I'm not sure what to change - I use P4 on the Behmor and try to follow Sweet Maria suggestions on roast levels.
Mac

erics wrote:Personally (of course) I think it to be difficult to get a "good tasting" 2 ounce shot. For now, I would shoot for 1.5 to 1.75 ounces in 25 seconds. After you succeed with this, of course, play around.

I spend about the same time as you do in grinding, dosing, distributing, WDT, etc. but keep an empty single spout PF in the machine all the time. I have removed the springs from all of my PF's. I use a spare PF to tamp the coffee and, when the time is right, simply remove the working PF from the machine, insert the prepped basket, and brew away.

So, the quick advice would be to prep your basket ahead of time, do your flush, and brew away. You are correct re your statement about brew pressure and temperature but that is applicable to Anita and Andreja.

Thanks, I assume you mean to get the shot to go "blond" at 1.5 to 1.75 oz or do you mean to cut the shot off early. I did play around a little with "dropped shots" and it seems like the harshness is in the early 1/3 of the shot. I'll start keeping my blank/single PF in the group while the working one is being filled.
Thanks,
Mac

drdna wrote:Well, those blends usually get me a nice, sweet shot. How far are you roasting them? Try going a little lighter to improve sweetness. Have you tried Ethiopian Kebado or Sweet Maria's Monkey Blend? These are also great choices for a nice, sweet cup. How long are you letting the coffee rest after you roast it? This is pretty important too! .

I haven't tried Kebado for espresso, and I haven't tried the Monkey blend since I got the Andreja. I've been hitting the roasts FC+ or FC++ as near as I can tell. I was looking at Monkey the other day and the description says it's optimized for lever machines, so I was unsure about getting more. I've been meaning to try some of the other SO beans, so I'll do that too.

Distribution is important. You mentioned the steps you go through, but how are the extractions with your naked portafilter? Is there any channeling?

I think I'm doing OK on distribution. The naked portafilter (generally) doesn't show channeling and the tiger stripes look good to my novice eyes.

Drop your dose down. When a blend is making your shots too harsh, this will often help. Try dropping your dose to around 14-15 g. Do you have a scale? If not, you can count how many seconds it takes to fill the portafilter and reduce it by 25%

I'll try dropping the dose - probably have to use some type of curved surface for leveling. Right now after fluffing with the WDT I'm leveling right at the rim. I do have a scale, but it only weighs in even grams - but it does go high enough so that I can tare the PF and know how much coffee I actually ended up with. Early on, I was weighing 14 grams into the PF but leveling seemed to be a problem because the coffee didn't reach the PF rim uniformly.
Thanks for your suggestions,
Mac

jmcdougal wrote:Thanks, Jim. I'll do that. I'm really happy with my roasting for mokapot and drip. I've nailed the blueberry in IMV and really like the boldness of Kenyan's. It could very well be that I need to roast differently for espresso, but I'm not sure what to change - I use P4 on the Behmor and try to follow Sweet Maria suggestions on roast levels.
Mac

It usually takes some experience to roast espresso well; the blends you are ordering weren't sweet when I last tried them and Tom is not an espresso person. Trying a roast from a premier espresso cafe or roaster (not Vivace, that's just more of the same), like Zoka, Klatsch, PT's, Paradise, Intelligentsia, Gimme, and many more beloved around here will distinguish the areas where you can improve your shot pulling from where you can improve your bean selection and roasting.

Free tip: Brew your espresso coffees as regular coffee. Let them get cold. They should taste clean and distinctly more sweet than bitter and/or sour. If they do not, you will never pull a sweet shot from them.

jmcdougal wrote:I guess the best description for harsh is burnt-sour-bitter (although I can't decide which predominates) and the taste would be oily-turpentine.

Your brew temp is too high for your beans, your brew pressure is too high period and your roast is off.

Suggest you reduce your pressure down to between 8.5 and 9.5 BAR.
Suggest you order one of the standard blends to calibrate taste, prep etc (I'd suggest Black Cat as many people here have a lot of experience with it).
Suggest you try switching to a "flush and go" methodology until you get this nailed.

I think you are right about the temperature. 2 minutes preparation was too long after the flush. I had a much nicer shot this morning about 30 sec after a reflush. Question is - should the PF be in the group during the 30 sec? A young barista I talked to this AM suggested that you should start the shot right after putting the PF back in the group head or you might cook the coffee.
Thanks for your response.

Here's what I do. Remove the basket from the PF (I took the spring out of the PF so baskets can drop in or pop out without resistance). Leave the empty PF locked into the group. Grind and dose into the basket until it is slightly overfull. WDT if necessary. Sweep level, being careful to fill in any holes or voids. See Dan's thread about Stockfleth's for dummies for a video of an easy and foolproof way to distribute grinds. Tamp firmly, making sure that the tamper is completely level. Now pull your cooling flush into your cup with the PF still locked into the group. Flush several seconds past flash boil (probably 5 to 7 seconds depending on your blend). Now take out the PF, drop in the basket and lock the PF back in. Dump the hot water from the cup. Dry the cup. Wait about 20 seconds from the end of the flush, then pull the shot. (Delay time may vary depending on the pressure setting on your machine and how long you pulled the cooling flush.) Enjoy.

malachi wrote:Suggest you try switching to a "flush and go" methodology until you get this nailed.

Thanks for your advice! I'll take it. By "flush and go", do you mean don't delay after flushing, i.e. pull the shot right away?

Beezer wrote:Here's what I do. Remove the basket from the PF (I took the spring out of the PF so baskets can drop in or pop out without resistance). Leave the empty PF locked into the group. Grind and dose into the basket until it is slightly overfull. WDT if necessary. Sweep level, being careful to fill in any holes or voids. See Dan's thread about Stockfleth's for dummies for a video of an easy and foolproof way to distribute grinds. Tamp firmly, making sure that the tamper is completely level. Now pull your cooling flush into your cup with the PF still locked into the group. Flush several seconds past flash boil (probably 5 to 7 seconds depending on your blend). Now take out the PF, drop in the basket and lock the PF back in. Dump the hot water from the cup. Dry the cup. Wait about 20 seconds from the end of the flush, then pull the shot. (Delay time may vary depending on the pressure setting on your machine and how long you pulled the cooling flush.) Enjoy.

Thanks for your advice. I've heard of the "taking the spring out of the PF" approach, but wonder how you handle the dumping the puck from the hot basket without being able to knock it out into a knockbox. I am under the impression that dumping the spent puck and flushing quickly keeps oils and gunk from building up on the screen. Do you use a hot pad to handle the basket or just take the basket out to cool off, and put the PF back in the brewgroup? If you want to do another shot right away, do you use another basket? Sorry about all the questions but inquiring minds want to know!
Mac