In this post I will attempt to fully describe my problems and what I have already tried to get a good shot. While it may be long winded, it is only to provide you Barista's with Phd's with enough information so you can find fault with what I am doing. Appreciate the help as I am beyond frustrated.

History: using multiple super-automatics from $600-2000 range for the past 9 years. Achieved good results with first machine to only have mediocre results following.

Primarily used for making cappuccino's with occassional espresso shot for quick pick up or to evaluate quality for cappuccino.

Beans were Lavazza Grand d'oro or Top Class with Starbucks when desperate.

Noted tastes - a rich choclate flavor when pulled with Lavazza. Strong & smooth.

In looking for a new machine and seeing that machines such as the Vivaldi S1 were being made with some nice features for reasonable price - I bit the bullet and bought one with a kompaq grinder. (Added espro tamper, water filtration, pressure regulator - set at 30lbs. etc.

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Having owned the S1 for about a month, I've made mistakes in learning how to use. Most notably left a spent shot in the machine overnight which funked up the machine pretty good and needed to clean & backflush.

Secondly, Chris's coffee sends the S1 with preinfusion on for 3 seconds and I did not know this. This is great, but I didn't have the pressure regulator and was pushing too much water 60 psi vs. 30 psi through the puck creating a miserable shot. So the first 2.5 weeks I am blaming on this although I did get a great cappuccino at one point. I'm blaming most of the problems I went through various beans at this point. During my efforts during pre-infustion I was using Chris' coffee black pearl coffee and Lavazza Grand Crema. The grand crema are the beans I used to get this mysterious great cappy during this time. Which is not the bean I was getting previously apparently.

Now I have the pressure regulator in, I have Toscana beans roasted on the 26th of Sept, and I'm still getting quite bitter shots. Which it seemed like with the super automatic, if they were bitter they would at least have some depth in a cappy. These seem thin with just the bitterness.

I am using the double portafilter and filling the grinds to the top, distributing, then tamping. I'm typically getting a light impression from the shower bolt which from what I understand is about the right amount of espresso for this machine.

I'm using an espro trainer tamper and have become somewhat obsessive with the grinder, emptying even the chute of old grounds for paranoia. I've adjusted the grinder to the point where it clogs the s1 and espresso won't even drip out and stepped back a touch to the point where it does and have tried to manage pour time based on coffee quantity, grind, and tamp. Only once was I able to get a pour that had the cinnamon flecking on the crema and what wound up to be a good pour.

My current thoughts make me think I'm grinding too fine with not enough tamp pressure (maybe need more than the 30lbs) as it seems like channeling may be the culprit. I don't have a naked portafilter, but see some change in pour rate at times which seems to me to indicate a problem.

Keep temperature at 94.

I hope someone can see something that points out a problem. Beside myself as to what could be wrong. If there is a local barista in the area - I would welcome them over to help. Free espresso! 

Thanks for listening.

Brent

For what's going wrong; try a mirror. For getting it right, try a bottomless PF.

Gee thanks. A bit coarse, but was considering a bottmless pf. If you need help with social graces, feel free and ask. I'm sure I can help.

Brentis wrote:Gee thanks. A bit coarse ... If you need help with social graces, feel free and ask. I'm sure I can help.

More abrupt than coarse; but I apologize nevertheless. Going into detail would probably be even less graceful; although through no particular fault of your own. It's a good thing that you've read the fora, and decided to invest in excellent equipment. But at the moment you lack so much experience that your post sounds like a movie review by a blind person. The quickest way to get the experience is to use a naked PF.

I agree with the other posters' recommendations, especially regarding using high quality, fresh beans. You can't get decent results without great beans. In addition, you may want to try the WDT to eliminate the possibility that clumping or uneven distribution are ruining your shots. Basically, you want to stir the ground coffee with a small needle to break up clumps. See this link for details.

http://www.home-barista.com/weiss...ion-technique.html

Also, make sure that you're dosing correctly. After you grind, distribute and tamp, lock the portafilter into the machine and then remove it. If there's any sign that the coffee is hitting the brew head screen, you're dosing too much. You can also place a dime or nickel on top of the coffee puck and see if it hits the screen. If it does, reduce the dose and try again. It also helps to use a scale to weigh your doses until you get the hang of dosing consistently by feel.

Anyway, don't despair. You've got a great machine and decent grinder, so you just need to work on the other two "M's."

[entire post edited because another HB'er said parts of it sounded offensive and rude, and that is not what I intended at all...]:

Your foundation of knowledge from the super auto will be of little use to you now. Accept that you are starting all over again... because the machine you have now is so different from the previous unit.

The "calibrated" tamper, is IMO, unnecessary, but whatever works for you is fine. A tamping force between 15 and 55 pounds should yield about the same results if all other factors are correct. If you find the you NEED a heavy or light tamp then you are most likely making up for deficiencies somewhere else in the process.

I HIGHLY suggest that you read my "How To" #12, located in the right-hand column of my website. It is about 10+ pages of text aimed specifically at helping folks, particularly those new to espresso at home as well as those having difficulties get the best from their machines. It has a LOT of info aimed specifically at the difficulties you are facing. No ads.. Nothing for sale. Just lots of free info....

You have owned the S1 for a month... That's barely enough time to learn how to operate it without getting burned. It takes a lot of time, patience, and practice to get really good at home espresso. be patient and keep working at it. The little things count, but coffee quality and freshness, dose, and distribution are very important because without consistency in those areas it is difficult to dial in the correct grind.

If round-trip airfare is included, I would be glad to drop by and assist.... First class seating, of course... Vegetarian meal, please. <-- see

Well, you can sort of learn to play the piano by tinkling the notes and reading books, but you'll save a lot of time and avoid bad habits with a good teacher. Same with espresso. I always recommend newbies train with a pro if at all possible in whatever setting works for their pocketbook. You might contact Jason in Lubbock, who is a regular here: http://www.espressotrainer.com/ .

First, get fresh coffee. The coffee beans you are using are verging on too old to make decent espresso.

The 53 mm double basket full to the brim holds a lot of coffee grounds! I would reduce the dose to about 10 grams, a half full basket. Weigh it on a scale if you have one or just time how long it takes for your basket to fill up and then grind for only half as long.

Be obsessive about eliminating clumps and having an even distribution. Obsessive. When I got a bottomless portafilter I found every shot I made reflected how careful I was with distribution.

Reduce your temperature to 91 degrees.

Do not tamp any harder, as you are more likely to dislodge the cake and create channeling.

Try that to start and then adjust as necessary.

Adrian

You have received some good advice and forgive me for repeating some of it.

First up, I have read that your particular machine comes with a choice of dispersion block (or whatever it's called); there is a thick one and a thin one. If you have the thick one, it will make the shower screen protrude further into the basket. Most people that I know hate machines with shower screens that protrude far into the basket, though I'm sure that it is possible to adapt. Find out if you have the thick dispersion block and if you do, replace it with the thin one.

With that out of the way, I'd just like to confirm that we're all attacking the same problem. From what you have written, it seems to me as though you are currently pulling thin and bitter shots and you would like to make them more 'strong and smooth', as you were used to. Is this correct?

Marshall has given you the best advice; getting training isn't often discussed online, presumably because once people do it they have little need to ask questions. If you pony up some dough for a half decent trainer, you will notice very quick improvements. If you want to do it yourself, you should expect to improve slowly, with a few "aha" moments along the track. If you place much value on your time and on the bad coffee that you will have to drink along the way, I think that you will conclude that a good training session is the best bang for your buck of any of your coffee purchases.

Failing getting a trainer, I would make the observation that you will only improve through repetition. Get a whole bunch of coffee and set aside an hour or two on each of your next few weekends. You might think that this is a waste of time, coffee and/or money, but I can assure you that you will learn much, much faster than if you make only a few coffees per day, with many interspersed inbetween. I would also suggest that you pick just one freshly roasted blend that you know to be good and stick with it for several months; preferably a blend that you can taste extracted properly at a nearby cafe.

Moving back to your problems with your extractions, as others have mentioned, don't even bother drawing conclusions from anything other than the shots that you have pulled using decent coffee.

In general, you can decrease bitterness by:
(a) getting better coffee;
(b) lowering your brew temperature;
(c) increasing your dose and grind size; and
(d) running your shots faster.

From reading your post, I suspect that you might have overlooked the importance of achieving a consistent dose. This is, IMHO, the most difficult aspect of espresso making, the thing that is most often the problem for beginners and the aspect that is most often overlooked. Fortunately, it is pretty easy to see how consistently you are dosing. You could always weigh each dose out; having worked in espresso bars, I find this to be irritating, fiddly and unnecessary, but I note that many home baristi swear by it. I would advocate doing a simple test:

(a) get your hands on a set of measuring shotglasses and a stopwatch;
(b) dial in your grinder; and
(c) make five shots in a row to the same volume and note how long it takes for each extraction (from pressing the button).

If you aren't within about three seconds, you need to work on your dose.

I would suggest starting with the following dosing and tamping technique; grind to a small pyramid above your portafilter, rap the portafilter against the bench twice to settle the coffee, get a credit card or similar to strike the top off, filling in any gaps on the side and then tamp once. If you want to use a low dose, don't rap to settle. IMHO, you shouldn't be complicating your routine any more unless you can establish that there is a discernible benefit. Getting a bottomless portafilter might help you to do that.

Once you have established that your dose is consistent, you can start trying different parameters. If you have a relatively dark roast and you are interested in a smooth shot and want to keep it easy, I'd start by maxing out the preinfusion time, dropping the brew temperature a few degrees, and extracting 2/3 of a traditional double shot. Something like 40mL in 20 seconds from the double basket sounds about right. If your machine's temp readout is relatively close to what's at the group, I'd suggest 91C. All of this is, at best, a shot in the dark and just a starting point.

I would also note that, from what I can tell, the LS has a group that is just a chunk of metal coming off the boiler. My old boss currently has a multiple boiler machine with a similar setup on his bench whilst his Synesso is in for repairs. He has found that the group heats up and the shot flavours change after the machine is used more and more - possibly because the group heats up. I am not sure whether or not this is an effect that you will need to worry about, but I presume that owners of your machine will quickly jump to its defence ;P

Regarding doses, there has been a bit written recently about low doses and fine grinds being easy to work with. I have tried this and I don't think that it will produce the sorts of results that you are after. I can't imagine that half filling a double basket would ever be a good idea, but I haven't used the LS single. One virtue of a higher dose is that a dosing error of the same amount makes proportionately less difference.

Hope that helps,

Luca

I had my machine for a good few months before I started to really get consistent results. I went through three styles of tamper, tap, no tap, thump etc. My conclusion was that all these had very little effect on the result - it was the distribution out of the grinder that really counts.

I always try to dose as level as possible, as I found that no amount of post-dose distribution could really make up for an uneven dose. If I had a mountain of coffee, I tended to always end up with a donut with edge channeling, even after careful stroking to make it level and even.

All I do now is dose as evenly as possible, minimum levelling with my finger, a very light tamp and then lock it in and pull.

Good luck with your journey, and don't lose heart - it's like learning to drive, eventually it becomes second-nature.

another_jim wrote:More abrupt than coarse; but I apologize nevertheless. Going into detail would probably be even less graceful; although through no particular fault of your own. It's a good thing that you've read the fora, and decided to invest in excellent equipment. But at the moment you lack so much experience that your post sounds like a movie review by a blind person. The quickest way to get the experience is to use a naked PF.

Probably the slap in the face that I needed. I'm beyond frustrated. Ordering a bottemless PF after I read all the posts. Some of your prior posts were what inspired me to look for help here, fwiw.

Lots of good feedback and new ideas - Thanks!

- Another point which may make many of you laugh is - I tried the ESE attachement and coffee pods and found them pretty unremarkable. Suprising as I thought they would be better than from a super-auto.

- With regards to beans - Toscana are from counter cuture in NY. Read that they were among the best. Have also received Chris's beans, but even with my horrible shots, felt they were not right for me. One of the great shots I made was with the Lavazza beans which even in my super-autos were decent (to me) and seemed less susceptable to aging. I also like Segafrado.

- Would Love a local barista - all that is around here anymore is SBux - which I agree is poor at best. Anyone know one in Dallas area?

- I'm going to try tuning down the temperature to 91 degrees and also try less volume. From what I've seen many folks were tamping to a point just below the retaining lip on the portafilter.

- Someone suggested I didn't focus on dose- your assessment is probably correct - I too find it seems overboard - seeing how the tamp should distribute evenly??? The compression should force even distribution, in my novice opinion.

- Shadowfax - I may take you up for some help at some point.


I'm off to try a few new suggestions. Initially lower temp with a less more even dose.

(Have gone back to read the comments and suggestions again - Wow - Really thanks for the help. I'm no longer quite as discouraged)

Brentis wrote:- Another point which may make many of you laugh is - I tried the ESE attachement and coffee pods and found them pretty unremarkable. Suprising as I thought they would be better than from a super-auto.

Unsurprising, given that stale coffee is guaranteed with (preground) pods. At least a superauto uses fresh grinds from whole beans. Which is "better" probably depends on the machine, but it's a moot point if you want good espresso. Neither is good enough for a refined palate.

Brentis wrote:- Someone suggested I didn't focus on dose- your assessment is probably correct - I too find it seems overboard - seeing how the tamp should distribute evenly??? The compression should force even distribution, in my novice opinion.

IMO the tamp is far less important than correct grind, dose and distribution. Do you have any evidence that downwards compression on a puck forces an even lateral distribution of grinds? My experience certainly suggests otherwise.

Brentis wrote:(Have gone back to read the comments and suggestions again - Wow - Really thanks for the help. I'm no longer quite as discouraged)

Hang in there! You've got some great equipment. It's only a matter of time before you pull some great shots. For starters: stick to the double basket, don't overdose, make sure the grinds are evenly distributed before you tamp, and adjust your grind to get a 25-30 second pour before blonding. As others have suggested, you may wish to invest in a bottomless portafilter and a 0.1g scale.

made some progress this morning.. After 10 or so practice shots last night.... The toscana beans were infact going bad - offing a rancid smell. This seemed rather quick for me, maybe they are much more sensitive than other mass marketed beans (maybe the mass marketed ones use a preservative of some sort?)

Anyway after using my wife for my cappuccino's as a test - she said this mornings was really good and she actually wanted another one... Pretty remarkable given how terrible the prior months have been.

Actually used a new lavazza bag I had and as suggested decreased temperature to 91 degrees. Also used about 25% less in the portafilter and it has made the pour much more consistent. For this particular shot i tamped about 50lbs. simply b/cI knew my grind was a touch coarse. (Anyone feel that the 53mm espro tamper could be a bit larger 55mm or so? Lots of wiggle room.)

Either way I'm happy and I've made progress with your suggestions. I'm on the hunt for a good cappuccino bean. I know everyone dislikes Lavazza b/c of its mass productions, but I really haven't found a bean that can provide rich flavor in a cappuccino. From the boutique beans I've tried, the flavor is washed out.

Brent

Your underlying problem is that your coffee is old. You will not be pulling good shots until you get fresh beans. Generally speaking, you need coffee that has been roasted less than a week ago. You have somewhere around a two week window of freshness. Unless you are buying (or ordering) your beans directly from the roaster, you do not have fresh beans. I do agree that you were probably pulling your Toscano too hot, if it was bitter. In my experience with it, it tends to be a brighter cup.

Sadly, in the Dallas area, this pretty much means mail order. I've never tried AAH! Coffee in Ft. Worth, but they might be worth checking out.

Mike

One way to verify old beans is to change the method of preparation. Try grinding for a french press (obviously careful not to scald the beans). Then try cup - is it still bitter?

That to be would be the sure way to verify the issue. Some beans hold out better over time than others - although that also depends on the environment.

The Starbuck blend (from all the shops I've tried in the UK) seem to be quite bitter regardless of the period between grinding and preparation.

I found the MCAL extremely sensitive to how old the bean was. Without being freshly roasted the MCAL will, as I like to term it - sulk, where the output will either by a gush without any substance/crema or choke where the you just leave it for 20 minutes and come back to throw the shot in the sink (any earlier and you face the lovely prospect of a sneeze).
With fresh roast the output is crema laden, has that gloopy look and gives the right time in the pour.

Brentis wrote:made some progress this morning.. After 10 or so practice shots last night.... The toscana beans were infact going bad - offing a rancid smell. This seemed rather quick for me, maybe they are much more sensitive than other mass marketed beans (maybe the mass marketed ones use a preservative of some sort?)

It's more likely that the beans that you buy at your supermarket are totally stable when you buy them, which means that they have little more to lose.

Brentis wrote:(Anyone feel that the 53mm espro tamper could be a bit larger 55mm or so? Lots of wiggle room.)

I think that the problem is more likely to be that the basket is not made to the indicated tolerances than that the tamper is the wrong size. In any case, I think that the fit of the tamper seems intuitively important, but is not actually all that important to deliver a great espresso.

Brentis wrote:I'm on the hunt for a good cappuccino bean. I know everyone dislikes Lavazza b/c of its mass productions, but I really haven't found a bean that can provide rich flavor in a cappuccino. From the boutique beans I've tried, the flavor is washed out.

I am sure that the advice to decrease your dose has resulted in shots that the people who posted that advice prefer, but I doubt that it is the way to get the shots that you seemed to indicate that you wanted:

Brentis wrote:a rich choclate flavor ... Strong & smooth.

This type of shot will probably do a better job of providing a rich flavour in a cappuccino. To get it, you need a higher brew ratio, which means that you need to use a higher dose and a coarser grind to deliver the same amount of liquid or you need to grind finer and extract less liquid from the same dose.

Cheers,

Luca

Great. Ive been thinking of trying a coarser grind..

thanks for the advice all - going to be a few weeks as i only have a 1 good hand due to rotator cuff surgery..