mini wrote:Now, I'm not going to say I'm a latte art expert. However, I have spent a lot of time working on latte art mechanics and theory, and I try to pour a rosetta almost every day. So I hope I can help! See if these suggestions make sense.

I see three problems: centering, milk texture, and espresso texture

1. It looks like you aren't pouring directly down the midline of the cup. It's a really easy thing to miss, but will definitely contribute to the symmetry of your art. Small vortex currents can turn a rosetta into a dragon. With better milk texture, the effect will be less apparent, but it's always good to fix the easy things.

2. I think that milk texture is your number one problem. Like you suggested, separation in the milk can cause exactly what happens in the videos - the liquid will flow to the bottom while thick "hard" foam will topple out at the very end of the pour. The remedy is a better texturing phase while steaming. This seems to be directly related to steam power for me. The goal is to get a really big rolling motion. I've heard it called a standing wave. You want the milk and foam to tumble around the pitcher substantially for optimal mixing.

Solution: On my Le'lit, which is comparable to your Silvia, I have to jump through some hoops to get the most out of my steaming. I can only get good milk texture if I steam while the heating element is active. It's a pain, but it's the only way I get results.

Let machine reach steaming temperature.
Open the valve and let all of the pressure drain out until the heating element turns on again.
Close the valve for ~15 seconds to let the pressure build.
Steam; hopefully ]the element stays on the whole time.

It's like temperature surfing for your steam wand.

3. The last thing is the texture of the espresso. You may be concentrating too much on making art in the crema. Most of the contrast or definition in latte art is between darkened milk and white milk. The first part of the pour should incorporate milk into all of the espresso while the second part marks this mixture.

Solution: Swirl the shot before you start pouring. Integrate the crema into the rest of the espresso which is more important for some beans. Or, as some others suggested, mix a small amount of milk into the espresso before you start your pour. I believe pro-barista Heather Perry used this in competition.

I hope all of this makes sense. You certainly don't have to make all of these adjustments to get results, but they have helped me out. Good luck! Keep us updated.

1. I know that in a lot of the scenes, I'm not pouring directly in the center, but I feel that I'm pouring close enough for the latte art to resonate at an even flow rate. I know what you're talking about with the waves and such, though. But if you look closely at the video, you'll notice the back end of the cup starts rifting and giving way. That's what causes the lack of symmetry, as it spins the surface, distorts the art, and unleashes all kinds of hell.

2. Agreed, but I just don't know how to incorporate the milk. If you have any pointers, let me know. I can get a really nice vortex going in my pitcher, but the result is always the same.

As far as steam pressure goes, I think I have plenty of it, as far as the Silvia's steam wand mechanic goes... I have a one-hole tip steam wand on my Silvia, and it just blasts the milk when I open up the steam valve all the way. I usually open up the steam valve slightly to stretch the milk, and then I open up the steam valve further during the texturing phase.

I know a lot of people give the Silvia flack for lack of steam power. I don't know if I have a different machine or what, but I've never had an issue of "lack of steam power." If anything, it's the design of the wand and steaming mechanic that makes the production of homogeneous microfoam close to impossible.

I notice with the bigger machines, people just need to stretch the milk and texture, and they've got great homogeneous microfoam, whereas with the Silvia, you need to explore different angles with the steam tip, etc etc.

The most luck I've had with homogeneous milk thus far, is when I crank the steam valve fully from the getgo. Because the Silvia has a one-hole tip, it concentrates a lot of steaming power into one hole, resulting in extreme turbulence. It's next to impossible to stretch milk at that velocity if you have anything less than 10 oz of milk in the pitcher. Or else, you're just not gonna have enough depth to absorb all that pressure from one hole.

I notice that with the bigger machines, they come with a three hole tip. Even though the steaming power is greater than the Silvia's, the three holes are sharing that load, making the frothing process smoother and steadier. So for example, each of those three holes are steaming at 60 MPH for a combined 180 MPH. On the other hand, the Silvia is blasting 90 MPH from one hole.

So yeah, it's not really the lack of steam power for me... it's really the fundamentally flawed steaming mechanic of my machine.

But like I said, the best luck I've had is when I crank the knob all the way from the start and stretch the milk with the steam pressure blasting full force. The process is very violent with no margin of error, or else milk will splatter everywhere. I find that the rare times I've tried this method with success, the milk is more mixed, and I don't get the rifting/spinaroonie on the surface of the espresso during the pour. Problem is, I have no idea how much I've stretched the milk, because the milk does not stay at an even level in the pitcher. The surface is flaring everywhere, and when you stretch at this velocity, you don't even have the tip on the surface. It's submerged, and when you hear a "blurb" or gurgle, it means it stretched... again, very hard to judge if you need to stretch more or less, with this method. Most times, I've overstretched with this pain-in-the-ass method.

samuellaw178 wrote:In the sequel video, it's obvious you had too much caffeine. Your hands are jittering all over the places. Give it a break before attempting another one. In my opinion, the second video isn't perfect, but it's getting better.

You had too big volume of a shot in the 5 oz cup. It seems like there're probably 2-3 oz total and you only have space for another 2-3 oz milk. Try making a smaller shot in 5oz cup or split into two?

I think I'll try splitting the shot to see what comes of it, on my next sink shot.

Thanks for the feedback!

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

I've made an update on my first post with a second video. Not much improvement.

I think it's the lack of homogeneous milk texture. That's the only thing I can pin it to, at this point.

I can create a somewhat decent rosetta with the 14 oz mug, because I have time for recovery. Plus, I don't need to start the art, until I have enough depth to counteract the rebounding of the milk...

On the 5 oz cappuccino cup, I have no margin of error. Only the best quality microfoam is gonna be able to make decent art on that...

Thanks again guys, and I'll only post another video if I sense improvement from the first two. Kinda getting redundant with the failures. After a while, they all look the same.

spiffdude wrote:Like i said, to be used as a last resort if you notice before the pour that your milk has formed a solid head of foam. The spoon will reincorporate it a bit but it won't be an award winning rosetta for sure!

Prior to my Rocket, i had a machine similar to a Saeco Aroma. Steaming was weak which gave you plenty of time to feel for when to stop stretching and start texturing. Problem was that there wasn't enough power to incorporate everything well.

For low quantities of milk, i find that i can kinda stretch and texture at the same time: i bring the tip close to the surface so that it does a little bit of the "pfft, pfft" once in a while and keep the tip very near the side of the pitcher so that the milk spins instead of just blurbing all over the place. It seems easier to control what is happening instead of splashing milk and creating monster bubbles.

For larger quantities of milk (10-12 oz in 20 oz pitcher), it's more of a classic stretch pfft pfft with the wand in the middle and then dig the wand a bit deeper to create the wave or spin.

On commercial machines, it seems easier but reaction times a very short and it is easy to overdo things. Tried it once at a cafe and created something you could use as mortar

Remember, we do this once or twice a day. Pro baristi do it hundreds of time a day. Give yourself a chance to learn. I've been at it for a year now and still muck it up half the time. When you do screw up, just say: "what, it's the continent of africa, can't you tell?".

That's hilarious. Thanks for all the advice and encouragement.

I've just recently discovered something in my technique that has solved my problem with the continental rifting or whatever you wanna call the symptoms in my videos.

The solution was easier than I thought - swirl the milk.

Yes, that's how easy it was.

I never really swirled the milk, because I always thought that the steam wand did a far better job of incorporating everything, than a human being swirling the pitcher...

Maybe it's because the Silvia's steaming power is considered weak. Maybe there's something in the swirling action that helps with the latte art process. I don't know the science behind it...

The difference is that when I swirl the milk for about 10 seconds after steaming, the pour starts thick, allowing the surface to develop tension in a matter of a second or two. When I don't swirl, the pour starts thin, and it takes a while before the surface has developed enough viscosity for precision latte art.

At this point, I find it hard to believe that my swirling is stronger than the Silvia's steaming capability... I'm almost starting to think maybe some separation of milk is a good thing... I think when I swirl after steaming, the milk is separating at a faster rate, than incorporating. Bah, I don't know...

HC_Jesse wrote:Where in Los Angeles do you live?

If you bring milk, I'd be happy to spend some time with you on texturing/pouring/etc.

Pouring good latte art is simply a matter of a good shot, good milk, and good technique - all of which require some practice.

Lemme know.

Do you have a Silvia, too?

I live close to the Western/Melrose intersection of LA... basically the border of Korea Town.

Although I've figured out what's been primarily ailing me, I would be totally game to come over your pad with some whole milk.

To this point, everything I've done is self-taught. I haven't had any professional help or hands-on help. Heck, I don't even know anybody in person, who's as crazed about espresso as I am. So I think it would be pretty cool to meet someone who may have different techniques than I do.

Thanks, I sent you a message. Anytime you're available and I'll be over.