apple2k wrote:Hi - I have had good results w/ BC. I took a class at Intelligentsia and their recommended parameters were:

18g dose, 27, out in 25-30 sec.

I found that using a finer grind and taking more time to get the same output generally helps w/ any sour notes

@apple2k - again, I have been doing this for only a month or so, so please don't make fun.

What you said above I am guessing means 18g of express and a 27 gram final weight? The reason why I ask is that 27 grams seems very low for a double. Most of my doubles (which I thought were supposed to be in the 2oz range) are much closer to 35-40 grams which seems to comply with this chart: Brewing ratios for espresso beverages

Again, thanks for the help everyone.

5wallace wrote:What you said above I am guessing means 18g of express and a 27 gram final weight? The reason why I ask is that 27 grams seems very low for a double. Most of my doubles (which I thought were supposed to be in the 2oz range) are much closer to 35-40 grams which seems to comply with this chart: Brewing ratios for espresso beverages.

27g low for a double? Well, that depends on what kind of double you're pulling, as does the volume of liquid in the cup.

It's true that a classic normale double made with 18g of coffee would typically produce about 36g of beverage with a volume around 2 oz. But that's not the only kind of double you can pull. As the chart shows, you can pull a ristretto double, a normale double or a lungo dounble. Each level of concentration has a different range of brew ratios for a double.

The brew ratio for BC recommended by Intelligensia, an 18g dose producing 27g of liquid, yeilds a 66% brew ratio (18g/27g). That ratio is slightly over the ristretto line when compared with a typical normale ratio of 50%. Assuming a typical pull time, you would probably get about 1.5 oz of liquid pulling with those parameters, which is about right for a slightly ristretto drink.

Note that since ristrettos are more concentrated, they tend to be more in-your-face tastewise. So the acidic flavor will be even more pronounced. You would likely do better altering the ratio to produce a normale or even a lungo (though they may taste too flat to you, especially since the coffee is old.)

As Dave and Jim imply, you probably can't fix this because the coffee is old and is probably roasted too light for where you are in your espresso journey. But you should try Jim's advice of lowering the dose and grinding finer to see how that affects taste. In theory, the drink should extract more and move from the acidic end of the scale towards the bitter end of the scale. Then a little sugar might get you a palatable drink.

Thanks Dick. That helps a lot. It really clears things up if I think about there being different types of singles, doubles, etc. Its not just a matter of weight and volume.

Thanks again.

And I seem to be getting a little closer to pulling tasty shots with the BC. The espresso is definitely still acidic with some orange notes, but I am getting closer to something really good.

18g dose, 27g shot is "ristretto" (as opposed to "normale") but not terribly so.

No disagreement with Jim's analysis at all, but want to point out that the terms, "acid," "acidy," and "acidity" in regards to coffee tasting are not the antithesis of "sweet," nor are they necessarily connected to "sour." Rather they're synonymous with "brightness."

Yes BC is an acidy coffee; but it is not necessarily sour. Remember "orange citrus" is the desired flavor note, and "oranges" can be very sweet and not sour at all.

My experience with BC is that it is very temp sensitive. Intelligentsia brews it too sour for my taste in their shops. I do a better, more pleasant job at home at (presumably) a higher temp, again according to my own (and my woman's) taste.

In any case, I'm not sure whether or not your equipment gives you fine enough or consistent enough control to do a really good job with as cranky a blend as BC -- no matter how much you tweak your grind.

While I like BC, I've stopped dropped it from our rotation of other people's roasts. If we buy pre-roasted coffee we buy Klatch. Now the moral of the story isn't run out and buy Klatch (you could do worse), but that Klatch is local and convenient to us and I know that I'm not only getting the good stuff, but fresh good stuff without undue schlepping or looking for a parking place. If you use mail order, make sure you're getting it reasonably fresh.

One of the things about really dark roasts, like TJ's "Espresso," is that you taste more of the roasting artifacts than the "varietal" characteristics of the beans. But one of the things about espresso as a brewing method is its ability to reveal those characteristics in a pleasing way. TJ's "Espresso" in particular seems to be roasted the way it is to sort of mimic espresso intensity and "sweetness," using a less intense brew method and an inconsistent grind -- but since you're actually using the espresso process with a reasonable grinder, you don't need all that.

There are some quality issues with TJ's beans, but I don't think your equipment is revealing enough to expose them. If you find TJ's coffee pleasing, don't run away from it. However, you might enjoy getting away from their dark roasted "espresso" blend. Try their Guatemalan, El Salvadorean, Peruvian, and Bali "Blue Moon," beans and see if you don't like them better. Mixing either of the Central Americans with either of the other two, 50/50, works well too.

Save those espresso roasts for your press pot.

Good luck,
BDL

Thanks BDL. That is also a big help. I did enjoy the TJ's blend, but I did feel as if I could find something at least a little more sophisticated and push my machine a little more. I now understand my Lelit is probably not capable to getting the maximum out of the BC. Yesterday I stopped into a local coffee shop/roaster in DC and bought a pound of their espresso. I am going to give that a try next.

You also seem to be suggesting that you don't need to use an "espresso" blend to make espresso. Is there a rule of thumb for the types of coffee that will and won't work for espresso? I mean, BC seems to me to be a very light roast which is the opposite of what I always thought espresso was supposed to be. I am not saying it is bad, just that I have obviously been misinformed for quite a while. I am coming to understand that there is a pretty big array of espresso roasts and that it isn't just limited to something that tastes like very strong coffee (which was always my belief).

There is no 'espresso' roast as such, but traditionally coffee roasters have avoided too much high acid coffees in their blends, or roasting such beans too lightly because it creates the sort of rancid flavours you have just experienced when put through an espresso machine. Those of us who have been roasting and blending our own coffee for years and years know this through experience.

There is currently a fashion for putting light roast acidic coffees through espresso machines, backed by some of the 'big names' on the hipster coffee scene who are keen to differentiate themselves from their forebears and attempt to present this as 'new'.

However, light roast espressos are like 1980's haircuts.... in a few years time nobody will own up to ever having liked them.

5wallace wrote:You also seem to be suggesting that you don't need to use an "espresso" blend to make espresso.

Not at all. In my earlier post I tried to say that TJ's "Espresso Roast" and similar mass-marketed ultra-dark roasts aren't the best choice for espresso. That is, I was talking about roast level only, not bean origins or other blend issues.

Is there a rule of thumb for the types of coffee that will and won't work for espresso? I mean, BC seems to me to be a very light roast which is the opposite of what I always thought espresso was supposed to be. I am not saying it is bad, just that I have obviously been misinformed for quite a while. I am coming to understand that there is a pretty big array of espresso roasts and that it isn't just limited to something that tastes like very strong coffee (which was always my belief).

In terms of roast levels, I'd stick to what you might think of the range which goes (in layman's and TJ's terms) "Medium," through "Medium Dark" and up to "Viennese" as best to begin with espresso brewing. When you get hipper to the jargon, you'll call the light end of "Medium" "C" (for city), and the range will go through "C+" (a darker city), "FC" (Full City), some -- but not many -- people consider "FC+" a roast level, and "Viennese" is still the name of the level you don't want to go beyond... yet.

So for the time being, hold off on "French," "Italian" and "Espresso" roasts, and -- just for now -- stay away from Starbucks and Peets as well as the darker TJ and Seattle Best roasts. If you want to fool around with regular, American, "Medium" breakfast style roasts, go ahead. But a so-called "Cinnamon" roast would be too light.

FWIW, the jargon terms have a lot to do with what happens to coffee beans during the roasting process -- especially the process which begins at "first crack," and goes through "second crack." That they closely track old fashioned color terms is a nice thing for roaster and consumer.

Once you've learned to grind and temp to balance sour and bitter, your palate will probably start to open up and you'll begin to experience some of the nuances in coffee tastes such as various types of fruits, nuts, florals, chocolate, caramel, etc. Once you've got some understanding of what's going on in terms of brewing, you can begin to look more deeply into blends and roasts in a rational way -- rather than as a series of random accidents.

Good espresso is almost always going to taste like very strong coffee. The question is, what else will it taste like?

Thanks Rich. VERY helpful. If you got a second, would you want to take a look here: http://www.swingscoffee.com/t-coffee.aspx

This is a local place that I like quite a bit. They have quite a few choices ranging in the medium - medium dark. Any suggestions? Any reason why I would want to lean towards a blend or single origin?

Thanks again. You and the rest of the people on this thread have been a big help.

Jake

5wallace wrote:Any reason why I would want to lean towards a blend or single origin?

Some people like single-origin coffees because they want to experience the flavors that are intrinsic to a particular variety of bean from a particular area. For example, they may want to experience the taste of an Ethiopian Yirgacheffe. In some cases, the single-origin coffee comes from a particular area or farm that might have unique flavor characteristics, usually due to the location of the farm(s) and the methods used to grow, harvest and process the green coffee.

A blend, by definition, contains more than one kind of bean, so the flavor of any particular variety in it may not be easy to distinguish from the flavors of other varieties. In general, blends are designed to combine the flavors of different beans from different origins to product a particular taste profile. It's a sort of "sum of the parts" approach.

The analogy in wine would be a California Cabernet Sauvignon (singe-origin) versus a French Bordeaux (usually a blend of Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc and Merlot grapes, and possibly others.) The blend is designed to combine the flavors of the constituent grapes to produce a unique flavor profile. For example, one common effect in the typical Bordeaux blend is for the smoother Merlot grapes to tame the more forward taste of the Cabernet Sauvignon. You might be able to taste notes of the each of the constituent varieties, but it won't be the same flavor experience as drinking a pure Cabernet Sauvignon.

I suggest you try both. A blend may be easier to start with because the taste may be more familiar to you, since most cafes use blends. But as you found with BC, the flavor depends a lot on how the roaster blended and roasted the coffee. There are blends out that run the gamut of flavor profiles from fruity to dark chocolate, and everything in between. The same is true of single-origin coffees. Basically, you have to try different blends, varieties, roast levels and roasters to find those that you like best.

The bottom line is that you are about to embark on a journey of discovery that can last a lifetime.