hi folks, I could use some advice here.

I'm using a super jolly and a faemina, all worked really well until suddenly my shots came out sour. Thinking back it probably started after I had to readjust the SJ for some grocery store espresso beans when I ran out of the good stuff, the shiny black buggers tasted OKish in a milk drink but will nit use them anymore.

Tried descaling, cleaning, readjusting the grind, lower dosing, different beans but all to no avail.
I' ve tested the boiler temp, the outflowing water is 93-94'C.

Yesterday I went back to 14 grams, preinfused like always for approx 10 sec, got an extraction of approx 24 ml in about 30 sec with the first drops after approx 10 sec, all sounding fine to me but the result was still acidic though I could taste the caramel this bean is said to characterize, no crema at all like most pulls lately.

If I turn to a coarser grind I get the sloppy outpour that comes with too little resistance little body and still acidity (which figures as there hardly was an extraction)

Beans from yesterdays experiment are from a top notch roaster (supplier of the dutch champion barista), really good stuff which never is older than a week post roast upon shipment, have thought they might be too fresh but that does not seem the issue as I've used them at 3 days post roast before without acidity coming through (although I have noticed other effects like weird crema before).

Just this morning I adjuster the SJ a tad finer, but it choked so I dare say finer is not going to be the solution....
Channeling, the faemina has a narrow basket, I do a sort of WDT and use the same medium tamp ( also because with 14 g the tamper easily get stuck in the basket as it narrows to the bottom)

I am going to stick to 14 g and will play with the grind some more and will fetch my Gaggia Classic to see what gives but would appreciate calling in some espertise here as I seem to be missing something.


Edit: wanted to edit my typo on expertise, but I'd like to coin that phrase is not already done by someone

If your shots taste too sour, there are a few ways to address that:

1. Temperature: Pull hotter shots, which will draw out more of the distillate flavors and balance out the sour flavors. On a machine like yours, with no PSTAT, I imagine this will require leaving the machine switched on for a longer time before pulling a shot, or else pulling some warming flushes through the portafilter before loading in your basket.

2. Grind: A finer grind, and a slower pull, will both draw out more bitter flavors and balance out sourness. You say that any finer grind "chokes" your machine -- do you just mean that the shots take more than 30 seconds to extract? If so, this may not be the end of the world. Give them a taste and see if they are in better balance than a "proper" 30 second shot. (On some lever machines, I've had very good shots of lightly roasted coffees that took almost two minutes to extract!)

3. Dose: A lighter dose, with the grind also adjusted tighter to keep the flow rate the same, will mute the sharper flavors, and taste proportionately more sweet. This will partially tame the sourness, but it won't make an unbalanced shot balanced.

4. Rest: Some coffees need about a week to mellow out before they will perform at their best. Maybe your roaster has changed beans (if you are buying a blend) or something else about their roasting that means that these days the beans need more rest before they are usable.

5. Coffee and Roast selection: You can always buy something that is roasted more darkly, or a bean that has less inherent acidity, as a way to avoid tasting sourness in shots! Getting balanced shots out of the more lightly roasted coffees can be a challenge at first, and if you are finding it stressful, one easy way out is to buy roasted coffees that are easier for you to work with, given your current equipment and skill-set.

I was getting consistently sour shots from my Faemina, and I tried hotter extraction, and the sour flavor went away. I put 2 thermal temperature strips on my group head to monitor its temperature. http://www.orphanespresso.com/Group-Tem ... _2133.html
The strips detract a little from the elegance of the espresso machine's looks, but are really indispensible when it comes to thermal management. The group head will overheat very quickly if care isn't taken, since the boiler and the group head are integral to each other.
I have three baskets that came with my Faemina; one single, one double, and a second double that resembles a modern pressurized basket. My tamper is 51mm and never gets stuck when tamping 14g into the doubles. I have that issue when trying to tamp 7g into my single basket.

Are your beans a light roast, if so it may be too light a roast...

If u use refractometer.... take time to analise the TDS..

If grinding finer chokes the machine, find out the maximum fineness the machine can take...

Adjust from the finest possible and take it to a grind suitable of getting a 25-30 second flow in the preferred basket....

If not successful, go to higher temperatures....

If your finest grind doesnt get to 25-30 seconds in the basket...

I suggest you should go coarser tamp harder....

Thanks folks, will take some time to tinker around. Some initial feedback;

I do pull warming flushes, have used the same roast before with good results using Exactly the same routine.

i typically do not care about the duration of a pull, the result is what counts.

The Grind is choking the SJ if I go much finer, I have only once managed to choke the Faemina ( when dialing in the grind). Grinding much finer is def not the solution, think I already am in the area of too fine or close to the ideal grind.

The beans are the same as before, I do not think the beans or their roast are the issue and I have the same result with every bean tested lately and the results were great a while ago.

Sounds to me as if the temp is off, seem unable to get it higher the. 93-94 'C but that should be ok

Edit: just noticed that the safety valve is leaking steam, so that probably is why I am having a hard time getting the temp higher...just managed 95 'C (Measured after flushing twice straight in a double walled glass cup without the PF) and the acidity is a bit less.

Guess the leak results in a much lower temp than before....will replace it and start from scratch...

btw: my findings so far have not indicated any temp stability issues to be honest (probably due to the 11 kg of Brass)

IMHO, when you get sour shots you should test the temperature by increasing in increments until you notice the transition from sour to bitter before you rule out temperature as the cause.

i agree with you, it is just that I seem unable to increase the temp...

I reckon screwing the pressure adjustment clockwise into the valve should up the pressure (which seems to work) but the temp remains the same at around 93-95 'C
Turning the little screw counterclockwise results in a release of pressure, so my logic should be ok but the boiler temp appears evasive of logic and the gas laws.

i am at a loss here...

Just dusted off the Gaggia Classic, first impressions are that the grind indeed is fine enough to choke the SJ as the Gaggia also struggles to squeeze the water through, i dare rule out the grind.
the espresso remains acidic so I think I will get in touch with the roaster and try beans from different source (other than the yucky supermarket stuff I had lying around)...weird this...

Last check will be trying the good old Illy preground stuff in the gaggia classic to see if I at least can reproduce the results I used to have....

Beans are now 7 days post roast btw, so that should also not be an issue.

Well after trying mineral water and preground Illy in both the Faemina and the Gaggia Classic I am at a complete loss, the result still is sour.
A reference check with a nespresso 11 strength capsule results in a slightly watery (to my taste) espresso which is NOT overly sour, using the regular tap water?

Preground illy in the Faemina (using the bottled water) shows that the illy grind is way too coarse for the Faemina, the espresso gushes through in approx 10 seconds (flow starts already at pre infusing) and the result is sour as can be expected. Reverting back to the good beans at the grind coarseness I zeroed in on results in a decent flow rate yet the result is still sour.

I also had my girl check the tastes, she has a very good palate and was not informed about what variable I was tinkering with but the result were confirmed as sour.

I think I ruled out following:
Grinder, because preground gives similar results
Beans, as preground and other supermarket beans provide similar results
Water because mineral water provides same results
Machina, both GC and the faemina deliver the same sour result
Manno, both me and the GF create similarly sour espressos...

But Nespresso using good old plain tap water results in a decent espresso.
The gaggia normally did well, but for the known temp stability issues, the faemina made fantastic shots.
Thinking back I think the sourness started after I changed the grind due to some oilyish dark roast I got when I was in between decent beans, yet this may be a coincidence.



So I am at a loss, perhaps I need to install a electric filter or buy green power??

A dark roast needs a more course ground than a lighter roast. Trying pre-ground or market beans gets you no where as there are old and will just taste awful. I normally run lighter roasted beans 20gr shots, when I run darker like I am now, I really need to loosen my grounds and cut back to 18gr to get even close to a good shot. these beans are at day 8-10 on age after roast. Generally my beans go off at day 12 after roast. Fresh beans ground at time of brewing is the only way to get real results.