Sink that First Shot - Page 14

by **JonR10** on Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:42 pm

Whale wrote:I will maintain and be argumentative on the fact that one's perception is not better than another.

Every person is different. Some have a more more sensitive palate than others.
Sorry, but it's a fact of life and the nature of reality.

Also, "educated" points to training. There are courses in sensory perception that allow tasters to share common experiences and languaging to facilitate communication of sensory information.

To say that everyone's perception is equivalent is just ludicrous IMO
Each person has a unique set of attributes and no two can be identical, even twins.

Maybe we can agree that everyone's perception is valid (at least to themsleves).
The word "better" is a value judgement and was not used or implied, except by you of course

by **Whale** on Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:07 pm

JonR10 wrote: Every person is different. Some have a more educated and/or more sensitive palate than others. Sorry, but it's a fact of life and the nature of reality. To say that everyone's perception is equivalent is just ludicrous IMO. Each person has a unique set of attributes and no two can be identical, even twins.
Maybe we can agree that everyone's perception is valid (at least to themsleves).
The word "better" is a value judgement and was not used or implied, except by you of course

I will agree that, I implied that "hyper-educated" meant "better" than "less-educated". My misunderstanding, if that is not what it meant.

I fully agree that one' perception is very unique. I also agree that someone may be capable of perceiving some flavour details more than another. And it is a fact that one may perceive more or less of a given flavour than another.

What my remark was addressing is the fact that I perceive the residual flavour of detergent and that it is a very offensive flavour to me. I prefer the taste of the residual oil and grind flavour from the previous shot to the taste of detergent. As a result I prefer, for the sake of flavour, to not detergent flush after every session.

I guess I have to work harder at getting my message across.

by **another_jim** on Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:09 pm

Whale wrote:I will maintain and be argumentative on the fact that one's perception is not better than another.

Not again. For the 100th time: the question is never whether your taste is valid to you; it is whether your taste is valid to me. Then it helps if you have experience in what you are tasting and describing.

by **Whale** on Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:37 pm

JonR10 wrote: Also, "educated" points to training. There are courses in sensory perception that allow tasters to share common experiences and languaging to facilitate communication of sensory information.

You added this tidbit to your after I replied to you...

IMHO, you can educate yourself in separating and focusing on certain flavours, You can educate yourself in learning to discuss and describe these various flavours in a language that will be understood by people speaking the same language. That a is a very good thing. FWIW, this is what I am partly trying to do by exchanging on this forum.

IMHO, you cannot "educate" your taste buds (the physical organ) and you cannot be "educated" in what taste better. No more than you can "educate" your eyes (the physical organ) and be "educated" in what looks good.

Again, I do not want to be, or come out sounding, belligerent. I just want to learn and exchange with knowledgeable people. Obviously I am a bit clumsy at it. Forgive me.

by HB on Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:52 pm

Without picking sides, I think on the innate taste ability versus education debate, Peter said it best:

PeterG wrote:I think that we, as a culture, are generally too insecure about our senses of taste and smell. I talk to dozens of folks every week who say something to me like "I just can't tell the difference between coffees" and "My palate isn't sophisticated enough to detect the differences you describe". I always call BS on that. I usually ask: "Can you tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi? Do you have a preference?" The answer is usually "yes" to both. I then reply; "The difference between those two brands of soda is much subtler than the difference between a mediocre Kenya and a great one." To put it in the context of our discussion: if you can taste the difference between Coke and Pepsi (differences in sweetness and acidity) and you can tell the difference between salted and unsalted soda crackers, you probably have the physical ability to pass the sensory skills test. The obstacle, therefore, is largely mental. (Ted Lingle and Joseph Rivera would probably argue with me on this score, but I'll stick with it.)

Somehow, we've decided as a culture that perceiving and describing differences in wine, coffee, scotch, perfume, etc. is best left to the super-initiated and skilled. Most people, when they hear what I do for a living, say to me: "You must have an amazingly gifted palate." While I would love to think that this is true, I actually believe that my sense of taste or smell is no better or worse than, say, 80% of the people out there. I have tasted coffee with those who are considered the best in the industry, and they are in the same boat. The only thing we do differently is 1. pay attention, 2. trust our senses, and 3. document our results.

In thinking about this topic, it occurred to me that the sensory skills test measures not only the ability to physically taste, but the ability to confidently assert your results. And, in thinking about it, this is just as important to the espresso judge as the ability to taste is.

—Peter Giuliano, Director, Counter Culture Coffee

From SCAA Sensory Skills [Psych] Test.

by **Whale** on Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:57 pm

another_jim wrote:Not again. For the 100th time: the question is never whether your taste is valid to you; it is whether your taste is valid to me. Then it helps if you have experience in what you are tasting and describing.

I am sorry Jim that I didn't read your 99 previous interventions on the subject. I am sure that I would have learned by now not to reply to a comments directed at me saying that my palate is less educated than theirs and to of course misunderstand the meaning of it.

But seroiusly, I am not sure to understand your statement. Maybe it is a language thing (stupid frenchy here)? Clearly there is no discussing that one's taste is valid to oneself. I do not understand how another person's taste can or cannot be "valid" to someone else? By definition, I would say, that anyones taste is "valid". To me "valid" means that it is not outside of the accepted boundaries that are "agreed". I am not aware that there are taste boundaries that are agreed upon. Therefore, anyone taste is "valid".

The latter part of your statement seem to imply that you mean that one's taste is of "value" to someone else if one knows how to communicate it properly. I am on the path?

by **Whale** on Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:03 pm

To Dan's post above and to Peter Giuliano comment.

That is what I meant. Peter is also gifted in expressing his opinions...

by HB on Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:05 pm

Whale wrote:The latter part of your statement seem to imply that you mean that one's taste is of "value" to someone else if one knows how to communicate it properly. I am on the path?

I believe Jim is making the point that if we are to meaningfully compare our experiences, we need to agree on some basic ground rules. For example, nobody disputes the practical benefits of agreeing what the colors red, yellow, and green are. However, there's no need to agree that everyone's favorite color is green. The same analogy applies to taste descriptors.

by **SwingT** on Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:54 pm

Question -

After pulling the first shot - is it better to wipe the portafilter out between shots, or rinse the portafilter before pulling the second shot?

I did a search on this, checked the FAQ's but if it's in there it's buried in something else -

I did find

Please offer me guidance on how to use my "naked" portafilter

HB wrote:I use a bottomless portafilter most of the time to check on the evenness of the extraction and because it eliminates the need to rinse the portafilter.

But am not sure if HB meant that mean between shots or what usage.

by **Whale** on Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:18 pm

HB wrote:I believe Jim is making the point that if we are to meaningfully compare our experiences, we need to agree on some basic ground rules. For example, nobody disputes the practical benefits of agreeing what the colors red, yellow, and green are. However, there's no need to agree that everyone's favorite color is green. The same analogy applies to taste descriptors.

Dan, I wrote this just before Jim's statement;

Whale wrote: IMHO, you can educate yourself in separating and focusing on certain flavours, You can educate yourself in learning to discuss and describe these various flavours in a language that will be understood by people speaking the same language. That a is a very good thing. FWIW, this is what I am partly trying to do by exchanging on this forum.

So I fully agree with the need to develop a somewhat common language. I just did read not that in Jim statement... Someday I figure out a way understand english...


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