Should a ristretto be properly extracted? - Page 3

#21: Post by **nuketopia** » February 21st, 2017, 12:23 pm

I pulled the following yesterday while doing some experimenting:

20g dose
26.5g beverage
13.1% TDS (measured with VST-III, cooled and filtered)
203-f
43 seconds (about 5 of which could be considered dwell time)
Barefoot Redcab Espresso

Thats 1:1.325 brew ratio, with a 18.12% extraction yield.

It made a dense thick espresso, a bit of acid bite in the front but not much, no bitterness. Hazlenut and cocoa flavors are predominant, as is normal with this blend.

Technique changes include a finer grind and increase brew temperature.

#22: Post by **nuketopia** » February 21st, 2017, 12:29 pm

Peppersass wrote: If you try to pull Ristretto with many of today's very light SO espresso roasts, you're going to get a sour, under-extracted cup. Some may describe this as "fruity" or "acidic", but in my experience a more apt description would be lemon juice. The emperor truly has no clothes in this regard.

Fact is, with these light roasts it's often necessary to pull Lungo or to grind extremely fine and use long, slow pre-infusion (ala Slayer) to avoid choking the machine. It's very unlikely that a Ristrettos pulled from a very light roast will taste good.

Curiously, I was trying some of Chromatic Roaster's "Radio" espresso. This is the lightest roast I think I've ever pulled. I had tried it prior to reading their blog and didn't get good results. After I read their blog and understood what they were doing different, I repeated it.

The interesting thing is this very light roast is designed to be pulled with *very* soft water and at much higher temperatures than we pull most epsresso with. When I repeated this setup with RO water and brew temperature, I got an extremely fruity and sweet espresso. It wasn't astringent at all. In fact it was so sweet that in milk it seemed more like a bowl of fruit loops cereal than coffee.

February 21st, 2017, 4:17 pm

Peppersass wrote:These points are important. Most of the other posts in this thread make generalizations about Ristrettos. But in any discussion like this you have to consider how the extraction method interacts with the roast level.

While a main goal of pulling Ristretto is to produce a stronger cup that amplifies desirable flavors, it can also be used to produce a more balanced cup from darker roasted beans. Ten years ago and more, roasters tended to produce darker espresso blends, probably trying to imitate Italian roasts. It didn't work well here because the roasts were 100% arabica. Italian espresso blends contain robusta beans that offset the bitter flavors of darker roasted arabica beans. So, U.S. baristas compensated by pulling Ristretto to avoid bitterness. Since darker beans extract more quickly, these Ristrettos weren't sour. They were pulled short to avoid bitterness.

If you try to pull Ristretto with many of today's very light SO espresso roasts, you're going to get a sour, under-extracted cup. Some may describe this as "fruity" or "acidic", but in my experience a more apt description would be lemon juice. The emperor truly has no clothes in this regard.

Fact is, with these light roasts it's often necessary to pull Lungo or to grind extremely fine and use long, slow pre-infusion (ala Slayer) to avoid choking the machine. It's very unlikely that a Ristrettos pulled from a very light roast will taste good.

My answer to the question is that Ristrettos should be properly extracted -- of course! --- always! (As a friend of mine quipped, "We hold these tautologies to be self-evident".) To me, proper extraction means a balanced cup that brings out the best possible taste from the coffee. Where that falls on the extraction yield spectrum depends on the coffee and roast level, but it'll probably be somewhere between 16%-22% -- a very broad range. The specific %EY is mostly useful for repeating the best tasting shot, guiding others who use the same measuring tools and troubleshooting your equipment.

The important point is that every cup of coffee should be properly extracted, regardless of brew ratio. The best recipe and brew method are highly dependent on the coffee, the roast level and your preferences.

Ehhhh.... no... You are just used to drinking espresso from dark roast, or you just lean toward traditional espresso, which I find most people tend to. Start pulling tight shots from fresh specialty, lightly roasted beans, and sooner than later you'll be tasting extremely complex flavors, coming from the bean and not from the roast. However, these complex flavors, do not necessarily taste good to all people. I tend to make espresso quite tight, from lightish single origin beans, and they do not taste like lemon juice, at all. They're sweet and floral. That burnish, "chocolate", flavor, from darker roasts, is coming from the roast itself more than the bean... Robusta takes nasty to my opinion, chemicalish and burn, and dominates over other flavors.

I gotta confess, years ago, when I started drinking espresso, I liked the darker stuff. The fact that this is what italians make, doesn't mean it is the best. And also, more importantly, it depends on the person. I do find, more people like the darker roasts. I honestly can't take the bitterness anymore.

February 21st, 2017, 4:19 pm

nuketopia wrote:I pulled the following yesterday while doing some experimenting:

20g dose
26.5g beverage
13.1% TDS (measured with VST-III, cooled and filtered)
203-f
43 seconds (about 5 of which could be considered dwell time)
Barefoot Redcab Espresso

Thats 1:1.325 brew ratio, with a 18.12% extraction yield.

It made a dense thick espresso, a bit of acid bite in the front but not much, no bitterness. Hazlenut and cocoa flavors are predominant, as is normal with this blend.

Technique changes include a finer grind and increase brew temperature.

This is very similar to what I get. In my opinion, it is far from traditional espresso. It is unique, and highly complex in flavors.

February 21st, 2017, 9:32 pm

entropy4money wrote:Ehhhh.... no... You are just used to drinking espresso from dark roast, or you just lean toward traditional espresso, which I find most people tend to. Start pulling tight shots from fresh specialty, lightly roasted beans, and sooner than later you'll be tasting extremely complex flavors, coming from the bean and not from the roast. However, these complex flavors, do not necessarily taste good to all people. I tend to make espresso quite tight, from lightish single origin beans, and they do not taste like lemon juice, at all. They're sweet and floral. That burnish, "chocolate", flavor, from darker roasts, is coming from the roast itself more than the bean... Robusta takes nasty to my opinion, chemicalish and burn, and dominates over other flavors.

I gotta confess, years ago, when I started drinking espresso, I liked the darker stuff. The fact that this is what italians make, doesn't mean it is the best. And also, more importantly, it depends on the person. I do find, more people like the darker roasts. I honestly can't take the bitterness anymore.

I can attest that certain light roasts (especially some high grown washed coffees) can be more on the lemon side. I typically find this with my coffees roasted for brew though...it's possible for some coffees to balance well they need pulled in 1:2 - 1:3 ratios. That's aside from slayer type shots. Unfortunately grinding finer has a point of diminishing returns and possible works in reverse extraction wise....

#26: Post by **CwD** » February 21st, 2017, 10:53 pm

I virtually only pull very light roasted single origins and have a pretty easy time getting 1.5:1 ristretto shots to 18-19% exty on my setup. I like em a lot better than the 20-22% 2:1 shots. I can sometimes push my 1:1 shots up to around 18%-19%, but that takes a rather long preinfusion and long pull time.

Basically I just:
-Keep the temperature above 200, usually set in the 201-203f range, with some natural coffees I am forced a bit cooler to avoid some off flavors, but it works most of the time
-Grind really fine, I often set the EG-1 rpm up high to push it finer while not choking
-Preinfuse, 20 seconds is about the least I go, up to 45 at most. I've done up to 60 when I was pushing to get 19-20% 1:1 shots, but I don't really like to.
-Aim for a long pull, 35-45 seconds usually, I've also done up to 60, but again there's effects I'm not especially fond of up here

Really anything that boosts extraction without side effects. It's very difficult to overextract a light roasted coffee at these ratios. It's just the "without side effects", and "without somehow counterintuitively reducing extraction" that's tough.

And on the thread's question, I'm not sure that extraction in the range typically thought of as "properly" is necessary anyway. I've had some ristretto shots that I'd call great as low as 16% exty. I find that with the right coffee the "bite" can be pretty enjoyable. The citrusy acidity is nice. It's when it starts dropping into the more spoiled tasting sourness that also leaves most of the other flavor notes sort of hollow that it gets just awful. I also enjoy eating plain lemons, soooo YMMV.

#27: Post by **AssafL** » February 22nd, 2017, 6:11 am

I would be a bit careful about using a refractometer to calculate EY for different grind sizes (it is perfect to ensure consistency between similar grind settings). Refractometers are still an excellent tool for quality assurance.

Over at the Kruve sifting thread users are getting quite large boulders for some grinders and at a high percentage of the dose weight. Now - assuming that large boulders do not extract as well as coffee fines or small particles - and that the centers of very large boulders may not extract at all: calculating EY will result in an artificially low EY. Qualitatively running the numbers (on VST Coffeetools) does show that EY tends to even out between grind sizes if boulders are removed from the calculation.

My assumption is that the dose entered into the EY calculation should include only the coffee that extracts. Sort of an "effective dose" if one has a large percentage of large boulders. So one approach is to sift boulders out, or regrind them back into the puck. Another approach would be to dehydrate the puck (at which point it is no longer a % calculation but actual grams dissolved into the cup). I would also assume that timing can be used to compensate for some of that dead coffee matter that is in the puck - albeit I don't know how...

February 22nd, 2017, 8:43 am

Anyone pulling ristrettoes with lower pump pressure throughout the extraction? I reduced my pump to 8 bar against the blind filter. And I grind finer and stretch out the extraction longer. Perhaps a lighter tamp, too. I did this after the earlier threads and blog posts about lowering pressure, extending shot time, and tamping lighter and slightly dropping temp. I feel like I've been getting sweeter more balanced shots.

However, heres the catch. It's an E61 HX, so I can't set precise temps. Although I have Erics thermometer and can get very consistent temps. Also, I don't have a Scace, so I can only go by what my pressure gauge says. I can't say for sure what the puck pressure is. And I don't dabble in refractometry. So I only assess shots by taste.

But, I can brew fairly lengthy shots, in terms of time, and they don't taste over extracted. Also, my machine has a vibe pump. So the slow gradual ramp up to full pressure, and the E61's inherent design, lead to a type of unadjustable preinfusion.

February 22nd, 2017, 8:46 am

RyanJE wrote:I can attest that certain light roasts (especially some high grown washed coffees) can be more on the lemon side. I typically find this with my coffees roasted for brew though...it's possible for some coffees to balance well they need pulled in 1:2 - 1:3 ratios. That's aside from slayer type shots. Unfortunately grinding finer has a point of diminishing returns and possible works in reverse extraction wise....

I really think it depends a lot on the person. Since espresso is such a strong beverage. What tastes like sweet orange with hints of chamomile and a little nutty flavor, might taste like lemon juice to you. What tastes like dark, quality chocolate with hints of almonds and orange peel to you, might taste like charcoal to me.

I eat lemons after lunch sometimes. I think they're sweet and sour, and I like them. I don't like chocolate, I've never liked it. And I don't like sweets, or sugar, I don't eat sugar, or anything the like, so I am highly sensitive to sweetness. It is possible that the sugars in lemons, or in highly concentrated light roast coffee, balance the sourness, since I am so sensitive to sweet flavors. I can't add milk to my espresso because the overpowering sweet flavor stays in my throat for hours, and it is really unpleasant.

I have to confess, when I pull shots for others, I rarely follow my own recipe. I tend to pull longer shots, going sometimes even a little beyond 1:2, to get some of the bitterness into the cup, which is probably a more balance drink than what I have (on average).

#30: Post by **JohnB.** » February 22nd, 2017, 9:12 am

canuckcoffeeguy wrote:Anyone pulling ristrettoes with lower pump pressure throughout the extraction? I reduced my pump to 8 bar against the blind filter. And I grind finer and stretch out the extraction longer. Perhaps a lighter tamp, too. I did this after the earlier threads and blog posts about lowering pressure, extending shot time, and tamping lighter and slightly dropping temp. I feel like I've been getting sweeter more balanced shots

8 bar against a blind basket is about 7 bar or slightly less during an actual shot. When I pull a ristretto shot with my Sorrento pressure peaks just over 8 bar & tappers down to 5-6 bar by the time I cut the shot.