Sounds kind of ironic I know. I am aware there are many different ways people pull a "ristretto". I am of the camp that it's a tighter grind and longer pull yielding a lower ratio (I use Andys chart). Not my question here though.

Is the assumption that a ristretto should still be fully extracted (I.e. 20% EY as a reference)? I feel like the answer is yes. I can manage that with a 1.5 brew ratio. But how in the world can a 1-1 ratio (100% ratio) fully extract? Maybe it just takes a crazy fine grind and really long pull?

Is there something to be gained from, or is the intention to pull a ristretto less extracted? (I.E. 16% as reference)

Have you seen this idea?
http://www.jimseven.com/2010/11/08/the-double-hump/
"Properly" as 20% and "should" don't seem to be widely accepted, especially when different roasts are taken into account.

In theory - the extraction yield should be the same for a ristretto, normale or a lungo.

EY is how much matter you have extracted from the coffee dose. Generally, this is a value calculated from a direct measurement of TDS (total dissolved solids) and beverage weight, per weight of dose.

For instance, you pull a 20g shot and use a refractometer and you measure 10% TDS. That means 2g of that shot is extracted coffee. Presuming the dose was 20g, you've extracted 2g of that dose into the cup and achieved an EY of 10%.

A well extracted shot should be 19.5% in an ideal world. So, of 20g dose of coffee, you'd need 3.9g of extraction into the cup.

Given a 20g dose:

Ristretto 1:1 ratio = 20g of beverage.
Normale 1:2 ratio = 40g of beverage.
Lungo 1:3 ratio = 60g of beverage.

Therefore:

Ristretto shot weighing 20g should contain 3.9g of extraction and measure 19.5% TDS and calculated extraction yield of 19.5%.
Normale shot weighing 40g should contain 3.9g of extraction and measure 9.75% TDS and calculated extraction yield of 19.5%.
Lungo shot weighing 60g should contain 3.9g of extraction and measure 6.5% TDS and calculated extraction yield of 19.5%.

Notice that "strength" is related directly to TDS. The ristretto is "stronger" and denser than a "lungo", because they both contain the same amount extracted materials in different volumes of water.

In reality, it is quite difficult to achieve extractions of this level in a small volume of water and ristrettos often come out sour because they are underextracted.

Perger's article on the subject is here:

https://baristahustle.com/blogs/barista ... ding-yield

Thanks, very well explained !

aecletec wrote:Have you seen this idea?
http://www.jimseven.com/2010/11/08/the-double-hump/
"Properly" as 20% and "should" don't seem to be widely accepted, especially when different roasts are taken into account.

I understand and certainly agree, I was just trying to put a frame of reference on what I was asking. I don't don't think only one EY is the right number, that was not what I was getting at.

TomC wrote:An admittedly dumbed down answer is: If it tastes better that way, then yes. That's really the end goal. I don't believe baristas of days of old were doing this for anything other than the results in the cup. What EY resulted wasn't a known variable for most.

Of course the end game and what matters most is taste, this is more about creating a recipe. If a modern cafe were creating a recipe for a ristretto how do you think they would approach (regardless of ease of workflow for them). They want to serve the best tasting ristretto.

Are they aiming for (try this different) an extraction that falls in line on the SCAA guide charts? Or something else?

nuketopia wrote: In reality, it is quite difficult to achieve extractions of this level in a small volume of water and ristrettos often come out sour because they are underextracted.

Is that your experience or Perger's opinion? I don't conduct scientific experiments on my shots, I just drink them. I only drink Ristrettos, 3-4 a day & they don't come out sour. Quite the opposite really but then I'm not pulling shots with light (under?) roasted beans meant for other brew methods.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you would have to increase grind size to get the "ideal" TDS in a ristretto which, may still make a ristretto by definition, but not the one that people seek. Unless science has also found that ideally all coffee is always extracted prior to the 100% mark for the ideal espresso recipe.

I'm with John, I have never tasted a sour ristretto. Sour normales happen regularly.

nuketopia wrote:In theory - the extraction yield should be the same for a ristretto, normale or a lungo.

EY is how much matter you have extracted from the coffee dose. Generally, this is a value calculated from a direct measurement of TDS (total dissolved solids) and beverage weight, per weight of dose.

For instance, you pull a 20g shot and use a refractometer and you measure 10% TDS. That means 2g of that shot is extracted coffee. Presuming the dose was 20g, you've extracted 2g of that dose into the cup and achieved an EY of 10%.

A well extracted shot should be 19.5% in an ideal world. So, of 20g dose of coffee, you'd need 3.9g of extraction into the cup.

Given a 20g dose:

Ristretto 1:1 ratio = 20g of beverage.
Normale 1:2 ratio = 40g of beverage.
Lungo 1:3 ratio = 60g of beverage.

Therefore:

Ristretto shot weighing 20g should contain 3.9g of extraction and measure 19.5% TDS and calculated extraction yield of 19.5%.
Normale shot weighing 40g should contain 3.9g of extraction and measure 9.75% TDS and calculated extraction yield of 19.5%.
Lungo shot weighing 60g should contain 3.9g of extraction and measure 6.5% TDS and calculated extraction yield of 19.5%.

Notice that "strength" is related directly to TDS. The ristretto is "stronger" and denser than a "lungo", because they both contain the same amount extracted materials in different volumes of water.

In reality, it is quite difficult to achieve extractions of this level in a small volume of water and ristrettos often come out sour because they are underextracted.

Perger's article on the subject is here:

https://baristahustle.com/blogs/barista ... ding-yield

I read a lot of Perger posts etc. I have learned a lot from doing so. However, I don't understand why he says you cannot have an extracted ristretto. I have no problem extracting shots at 1.5 ratios. I just grind finer and pull longer. I can understand though why he states with increase in strength you lose some clarity.