Just received a new Ceado E37S grinder yesterday (have previously used a Mazzer Mini E), spent a few hours running crappy beans through to season the burrs, and then embarked on dialing in the grinder for my go-to blend, Red Bird Espresso. It has kind of knocked me for a loop.

I started out using Chris Weaver's methodology (https://www.coffeegeek.com/opinions/ukb ... 03-01-2012). Notably, while Jeff Pentel recommends a temperature range and pull length, he does not include optimal dosing, noting that there are too many variations with machines and baskets to be specific. Using the Mazzer, a 20 gram dose worked best, and so I began grinding that weight to shoot for a +/- 25 sec. pull from first drop (this is using Espresso Parts ridgeless double baskets on a fully heated QuickMill Vetrano).

Much to my surprise, I couldn't find any 20 gram doses that tasted decent, regardless of fine/coarse adjustments. The grind that yielded that 25 second pull tasted astringent, was prone to channeling, and had a wet puck. Adjusting for a coarser grind made for a too-quick, sour pull. I couldn't get any predictable results.

I figured I needed to throw out all my assumptions and start from the beginning, so I decided to pull out the Scace and check my flushing routine, which had served me well for years. Interestingly, I found that the routine I'd established (a 24 sec flush followed by a 60 sec recovery on a fully heated machine) which had given me a flat 199 F pull, was showing a decaying temperature from 198 down to 196 F. Don't know what accounted for the change, but -- counter-intuitively -- I found that a 24 sec flush followed by a 50 sec recovery led to a nearly flat 200 - 199 F pull. Vetrano gremlins?

I then tried varying the weight of the grind (20 g was still not good), and find that a relatively coarse 23 grams -- with the modified flush -- provides pretty good, though not quite optimal results. My interim conclusion is that the E37S -- which yields much fluffier grounds than the MMe -- is different enough that prior results must be thrown out, and that I pretty much have to rethink my entire routine. And maybe recalibrate my taste buds to figure out what the heck is going on with all those puzzling shots I'm pulling, and seemingly not able to tweak out a path (yet) to truly wonderful shots.

Open to thoughts or any advice proffered. Thanks!

John,

I sometimes switch out using my Strega over to my Cremina, and after a few weeks I switch back. They are both so good and unique from each other in shot profiles. I find after I switch I have to remember to re- learn my K10, dose, shot times for the beans on hand at that time. I like this rediscovery process, it forces me to think and taste more critically.

Only one simple suggestion I would give, dose down and grind more finely. Try pushing that new grinder down to the finer grind levels with a 15-16 gram dose. The power of the Strega got me hooked on testing new beans at very fine grind levels, sometimes with surprising results. The Cremina also gets some great shots with a finely ground traditional 14 gram double.

I just want to say that you're not alone. I'm having a spiritually similar but technically very different issue. I just upgraded from a Baratza Vario to Compak K10 PB. I had my Vario for about 18 mos. I thought my technique and routine was solid. I was pulling consistent shots when I wanted to, and was able to adjust variables to attain different results if I chose to. This was all done with a Rancilio Silvia! I upgraded my Machine first to a Mini VIvaldi and found the results to be far greater than I would have expected. Soon after I jumped for the Compak K10 and am having a REALLY hard time pulling a palatable shot, pulling two similar shots in a row, dialing in the grinder AND adjusting for taste.

I feel, like you, that I have to start over and create a whole new routine based around the most bare bones aspects of my technique. Very frustrating. I just hope it turns out as rewarding as the first time I pulled two good shots in a row

I don't have your gear but I was struck by how long your flushes are. You are drawing water for 24 continuous seconds?

Yes. In the process of dialing in my non-PID machine with a Scace to get predictable even-temp shots, IIRC a thread here on the Vetrano suggested long flushes and a long recovery as a key for the first shot. Perhaps due to the heat retention characteristics of the Vetrano's components. When I did shorter flushes, I could target the initial pull temperature but found it would go way out of whack well before the shot was finished. Subsequent shots would show instability as well.

With my current flush process, by varying the initial flush-and-recovery times, I can reliably target temperatures between 195-205 F and they stay within a degree or so of target throughout the whole range a 30-sec shot. And subsequent flush-and-go shots after the first one.

Little doubt my next machine will be a PID-equipped dual boiler, which will work fine for me since I don't typically pull different coffees throughout the day. That should enhance predictability even more.

Thanks for taking the time to explain. It seems to be a very different process to what I've seen discussed here and potentially rock the boat. I think it would make a very interesting thread on its own if you have the graphs to demonstrate?

Scale will have that temperature flush/recovery symptom. As boilers/heat exchanger scale on the inside and outside, thermal transfer is slowed so flushes take less time and recovery takes more.

This happens, if you change out your machine or grinder...you should really throw out most of your "known" parameters and get back to grind/dose basics. Start with a very minimum dose and work your way up for a given basket and coffee, it gives you a lot more than you might have found out otherwise.

I've found that this can also happen over time for a variety of other reasons even if you don't change out your machine/grinder. Burrs season, machines scale up, seals wear, pressure stats may drift or become less accurate over time, water quality shifts.

Whatever the reason, sometimes it's good just to pull a series of calibration shots...sometimes you realize that your ideal parameters have changed, and rather than trying to figure out what changed on your equipment, it's easier to just dose a bit more, or grind a bit finer...etc.

It's surprising how far off things can get sometimes when you get into a routine, and shots can come out mediocre or average for far too long. This is just in my experience, but I've had it happen from time to time. Once I recalibrate, I do feel a bit bad that some past coffee has been "wasted", but oh well, such is life.