So a quick overview of setup:
(brew boiler PID'd) Brewtus II
Mazzer Major grinder

Beans:
Home-roasted on a PID'd poppery to Jim's recommendations
as well as Pro-Roasted Cafe Fresco beans, Black Cat, others

Baskets:
-Stock Brewtus [double]
-Stock Rancilio [double]
- Ridgeless LM [double]
- Rancilio single (never use it)
- Triple

I have read a ton here about all sorts of different techniques: WDT, NSEW Tamp, Light tamp + Hard Tamp, Nutating Tamp, etc

On the Major clumping isn't really an issue so I only used WDT a couple of times to see if it would make a difference (I don't believe it did)

I generally try to fill the basket and level with a straight edge, then soft tamp (getting the edges) followed by hard tamp.

I am currently pulling at 9bar [using brewtus gauge] and we set the boiler temp to 221F (measured 200F at the puck)

Lattes generally taste pretty delicious, but when trying to get a nice straight espresso shot (with any noted characteristics such as nuttiness, chocolateness, florals, etc) I'm having no luck.

It's usually bitter or acidic. Now I know the first thing that comes to mind is temp, I played with temperature both raising and lowering and it does have an effect, but still cannot produce the flavors im looking for.

The shot does seem to blonde early (before a full 2oz) usually ~1.5oz give or take.

When I examine the puck, I often find that the edges may have some channeling (holes).

I am going to try to shoot a video of an extraction tomorrow for you guys (I use a naked portafilter) so maybe that will help.

The one thing I haven't really played with too much is the dose.. I do have a scale that is +/- 0.1g, but havent really played with it that much (is that probably my error here)?

You seem to suspect channeling is the problem, go ahead and combat that. But I'd also suggest you play with lowering your brew pressure, down to between 8 and 8.5bar, and see if you like the result.

See Finger Swipe Dosing ==> Sub-Par Shot?

Try giving the PF a gentle side to side to even out the distribution.

Try using the scale, dosing to 15 or 16g double and adjust grind finer. Depending on the coffee, you may need to up the dose slightly so the puck just contacts the screen.

Lowering the brew pressure can make things easier, but may not result in the desired flavor profile.

Hopefully you're using a double basket!
You might try skipping the extra tamping stuff especially if you suspect edge channleing

What I do is grind fine, overload the basket a bit, then WDT, levelling off with a straight edge.
Then Tamp. ONCE, straight down. No tapping, no twisting, no multi-tamping.

Seems like everyone has some kind of tamping ritual and most often the extra steps have potential to cause problems.

After that, maybe be sure to regularly mix in pro-roasted beans to check your roasting consistency. Roasting is an art and I find it's helpful to make regular reality checks on myself against the pro's

I am still what I consider a beginner but I have had very good success with my straight espresso. Take this for what it is worth but my experience given that you have basics such as your potential channeling and temperature control taken care of is

Dose is critical is extracting the distinct flavors you mentioned and it changes for each blend or single origin tried. My guess would be that you are over-dosing.

Use your scale and vary the dose with a "reasonable temperature" until you get what you like once and then try reproducing that over and over. Then you can if you wish play with the temperature to define better what your tastes enjoy. You can search for older discussions of predicted effects of dose and temperature on specific flavor extraction profiles to use as a guide.

You will get it with a bit of effort.

Dear Mr. Godly,

You live in NYC. There is no need to rely on remote advice, when personal training is so readily available to you (and so much more effective). Here is Intelligentsia's. Other roasters may have similar programs in New York.

http://www.intelligentsiacoffee.com/store/product/id/2052

For L.A. area readers, Chuck Jones offers a very nice bring-your-own-machine training class in Pasadena at his roastery.

http://www.thebestcoffee.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=95&products_id=769

Marshall wrote:Dear Mr. Godly,

You live in NYC. There is no need to rely on remote advice, when personal training is so readily available to you (and so much more effective). Here is Intelligentsia's. Other roasters may have similar programs in New York.

http://www.intelligentsiacoffee.com/store/product/id/2052

For L.A. area readers, Chuck Jones offers a very nice bring-your-own-machine training class in Pasadena at his roastery.

http://www.thebestcoffee.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=95&products_id=769

And I'll testify to the efficacy of the Jones home barista workshop. Although my little Caravel was rather the odd man out at the workshop I attended, I'm pulling better shots now, than I was before.

200 dollars is kind of steep for an espresso class especially when you don't need to be taught the basics... I will definitely consider it though.

Here are a few pictures of my pucks:


I consistently see these side holes^


This one sucks a lot^

I am going to try to shoot a video and post it up as well

Here's a quick video:

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums...rrent=DSCF4785.flv

47 secs of pump time seems quite long. To me, it looked as if the flow rate was too slow. Also, looked to me like the distribution was either off, or a non-level tamp. Seemed to be flowing out the RHS more than the left, although hard to see clearly on the video.

Examine your Distribution for an even coffee bed. Make sure your tamp is level. Either dose a little less or coarsen the grind to speed up the flow rate.

That my armchair guess, good luck.

Chris

First thing I noticed, I would have cut the shot at the 36 second mark. From the time you locked the PF at about 1:09 this would result in in a 33 second shot which is within normal parameters.

Do these things.
Watch your flow. IMHO your shot is running almost a good ten seconds too long. This is ten seconds worth of bad flavors. This is your major culprit. And if that doesn't sort it out for the most part, possibly lower your dose a tad -- adjusting grind accordingly.

I weighed out how much I normally end up putting into the portafilter and it is 18g+
In my testing tonight I used 15-16g but still tasted bitter/harshness (but notably less)

What makes more sense - to grind coarser or tamp with less force?

Here are some photos of a shot I pulled earlier today (15g dose I believe)







And here is the result in the cup:



It looks so beautiful, I wish it tasted as good!

It seems to me that most of the beautiful looking shots I pull are almost always ristrettos where the pour is extremely slow. I try to cut these off when they blonde (not by time).

Im no expert, but heres my thoughts,

The video seems to show some decent channeling, almost like the extraction doesnt fully develop until mid-way through the shot. The pictures on the other hand, look pretty solid.

Tell ya what Id do. If I was dialing in a new batch/bag of beans, and I pulled the shot you did in your video, I would loosen up the grind a little. Maybe a half-notch on Mr. Major. Keep the dose the same. WDT. Cant advocate this technique enough. True, the major needs no help in de-clumping..it does a great job. The wdt is more-so about a perfect, evenly extracted shot, every...single...time. I use it for every shot I pull, and I RARELY see any clumps in the PF. Try it out, Im near 100% positive that will solve the channeling. Since you want the shots to be less bitter, you're going to want to end the shots at a max-time of 35 seconds. Ristrettos are a whole different monster, ones which can run sometimes 50seconds even. Shoot for 30 seconds, and roughly 1.5oz in the cup, more is cool, you dont want much less. Once you are happy with your regular, normale shots, then you can venture into ristretto-land.

Once you're getting shots that pour correctly, dont channel, and give you the right volume, then you can fool around with the temperature, keeping whats in the PF the SAME. Pro-HBs tell us that we should only change ONE variable at a time, so we can accurately diagnose any problems..this is great advice. IF you want to go up a degree, or down a degree, continue to dose 16 grams, WDT, and extract ~1.5oz in 30seconds.

Though, from the video, I really dont think temperature has much to do with the bitterness you describe in the cup. I really think it is from both, channeling as well as the shot running long. I am pretty confident that if you loosen up the grind, and use the WDT method on all your shots, you will be pulling espressoporn worth shots, every pull, and more importantly, your shots will be smooth as butter, sweet as cream, and deep as willy wonka's greatest creation. If you find that they are pulling correctly, no channels, correct time, and you still have bitterness that is unpleasant to your taste, then switch blends. Maybe take a break from your home blends for espresso and order from the pros for a little while. Pro-roast are spot on, everytime, so you dont have to worry about that variable too. As for tasting distinct notes, like floral, citrus, spice, etc etc, dont worry if you dont taste them fully there. Tasting all the notes in an espresso is as much an art as pulling the shot, and for me, if I can taste, say two flavors that arent chocolate and roast-flavor, Im a happy barista

And most importantly, just have fun. Espresso at home can get frustrating, and when it does, its time to change something. I recently got frustrated with my shots not tasting consistent from batch to batch, off flavors I didnt want, things like that. SO.. Im taking a break from home roasting for espresso for a while, and only pulling shots with pro-roast for the next month or so. My point is, you shouldn't be battling with your equipment everyday just to get that perfect shot.. you should enjoy the journey, both the good shots, and the not so good shots. Because at the end of the day, its coffee..and if you cant just enjoy your coffee, life is that much more of a pain..and thats something I think we can ALL agree on.

Good luck, let us know how things go!

All the best,
Jeff

I am definitely going to play around with dosing more as well as changing up the grind while keeping other variables the same.

My question is - in a caffe setting, the baristas do not have enough time to use a scale and weigh each basket, it is highly impractical and most just dose by volume to overfill the basket and then level with either a straight edge or a stockfleth's type move.

Today I had some delicious shots made by Tom @ Chestnut Hill Coffee Co. and he used the technique I described above.

Do you think it makes sense to overfill basket, level, tamp and then just play with temp/grind? Or should I just deal with it and weigh each time I pull a shot?

What do you guys do?

I'm probably the last one who should answer, being a relative newbie. However, I think most folks would say that if you can use a more simple technique to get a result in the cup that satisfies you, then go for it. It's all about what tastes great to you. If not, then unfortunately, you have to go through the whole song and dance.

I have found that after using tools like a scale consistently for a few weeks, you start to get to where you can eye-ball it, and get good results. I only use a scale every few shots now, just to double-check myself. If something goes wrong, I start all over again and build up from there. Mostly, I can tell by the size of the pile of grounds, and also by the depth of the piston when tamping.

Obsess with the details in the beginning and, as you get better, you'll be able to consistently pull great shots without obsessing. The obsessing should be a means to an end.

Hope that helps.

Chestnut hill uses a 3 group Marzocco and two Mazzer Majors. Their machine acts quite a bit different than your B2. Coffee makes a big difference as well. They run a high dose, very tight ristretto at a high (203.5) temperature. Use a different coffee and the entire formula changes.

As to dose, you learn to work by sight after a few thousand shots. I only use the scale when I am using a new coffee, testing something, or just want a sanity check to make sure I am still hitting my mark. I don't have any problem falling within 0.2 grams of my target by sight. But as a beginner, it is a handy aid.

Your shot video was slow on the extraction and you definitely had some channeling going on. When you are trying to diagnose a problem, make small, deliberate changes but only change one thing at a time. You have to take a very methodical approach to shot diagnostic. You may want to look over Dialing in a new espresso machine, a step by step guide. It may help out, or not.

Thanks for your help Dave. I read over that thread before today.

I picked up 2lbs of Gorilla Coffee (Brooklyn) Ethiopian Harar and am going to try to tune in the grind and dose.

The idea is as follows (correct me if i'm wrong)

1. Set pressure @ 9.25 bar (this is in boiler so prob 1-2bar less at puck)
2. Try 15g dose and play with grind coarseness to achieve ~2oz in 25 sec
3. Then play with temperature to see taste attributes
4. Also play with dose to see if this coffee prefers to be downdosed or updosed

As of right now 99% of shots I'm pulling are harsh. Either bitter, acidic or pungent... nowhere near where they should be

I'll let you guys know how it goes tomorrow.

godlyone wrote:200 dollars is kind of steep for an espresso class especially when you don't need to be taught the basics... I will definitely consider it though.

Actually pretty reasonable. All of us need to be "taught the basics." And periodically be retaught them again. My problems are rarely esoteric, usually they are fairly obvious once someone who knows points them out. If I could get good input for $200 to me that would be a lot better than wasting lots of time being dissatisfied.

godlyone wrote:Thanks for your help Dave. I read over that thread before today.

I picked up 2lbs of Gorilla Coffee (Brooklyn) Ethiopian Harar and am going to try to tune in the grind and dose.

The idea is as follows (correct me if i'm wrong)

1. Set pressure @ 9.25 bar (this is in boiler so prob 1-2bar less at puck)
2. Try 15g dose and play with grind coarseness to achieve ~2oz in 25 sec
3. Then play with temperature to see taste attributes
4. Also play with dose to see if this coffee prefers to be downdosed or updosed

As of right now 99% of shots I'm pulling are harsh. Either bitter, acidic or pungent... nowhere near where they should be

I'll let you guys know how it goes tomorrow.

How's the Harar pulling? Not familiar with Gorilla Coffee's Harar or how it's roasted. Is it roasted targeted for SO espresso or roast targeted general brewing? What's the roast date? One of the mistakes oft' made especially by home roasters is using coffee that's too fresh for espresso. If the Harar roast targeted for general brewing (generally speaking faster profile and overall bit lighter roast) you'll play hell getting a good straight shot, especially without at least a weeks rest and likely more like 10 days or more preferable. Even if roast targeted for SO shot use wouldn't expect good shots without at least 5 or 6 days rest. A bright fruity SO can be one of the most difficult to get a good smooth balanced straight shot.

You mentioned watching experienced pro baristi not weighing their shots, simply dose level and tamp. What you may not have seen is many hours of training with a scale where they've practiced developing consistency getting to know fairly accurately by sight and feel how much their PF build weighs. You might be surprised how much a PF build can vary just fill to mound and leveling, easily a gram or more. It takes a lot of practice to get consistent +/- 0.2g builds and +/- 0.1g preferable. And the more different coffees you use the more difficult consistency is to achieve. Stick with one known coffee, be it blend or SO, until you can consistently make it sing. Ideally a coffee you can walk into someone's shop and get an excellent shot, then work to consistently replicate that shot at home with the same coffee. Talk to the barista about their shot parameters, including coffee rest time. Don't change coffees until you know that coffee well and how varying different shot parameters vary the shot result. It may take days, it may take weeks or months. Then try another coffee...

Regardless enjoy the Journey!

Marshall wrote:For L.A. area readers, Chuck Jones offers a very nice bring-your-own-machine training class in Pasadena at his roastery.

A bit hard to do when your machine is plumbed-in . . .