Any HB members using single boiler dual use (SBDU) machine like Alexia with PID with the new LaMarzocco Strada (VST) basket? I have read multiple other HB threads on the VST basket and I did not see one with this use nor with Mazzer Super Jolly level grinder. I sincerely hope this thread does not go into needing a "cool down period."

I bought the LM Stada basket from Chris Coffee recently (nearly all of my espresso equipment from his store). I had some questions regarding this filter basket and customer service rep at Chris Coffee told me they are only aware of LM Strada/VST basket being used with commercial machines and heat exchanger machines and dual boiler machines. I realize there will be few others in my situation and hence I wanted to ask this in Home Barista.

I realize the LM Strada (and VST) basket is designed for commercial use. But at $30 I figured what the heck for my SBDU and SJ grinder.

My taste vocabulary is nowhere as developed as other HB members. I am basically still Siskel&Ebert thumbs up/down. So far preliminary opinion is "thumbs up". Nuevo's characteristics are more easily detectable/prominent (not in bad way) with the LM Strada basket (versus Rancilio triple basket).

What I have noticed is I must use Weiss distribution techniques (WDT) for at least 30 seconds to get any consistency with the LM Strada (VST) basket. Malachi stated Super Jolly level grinder is inadequate for the Strada/VST basket How filter baskets affect espresso taste and barista technique. Perhaps this is why full WDT is needed even though no channeling seen and extracted cone was centered with tiger striping with the shorter time WDT but taste not consistent shot to shot. With prior Rancilio triple basket, 5 seconds of WDT did the trick. Stating this to the Boss as reason I should have another grinder (e.g. K30 or K10 Fresh) fell on deaf ears

I would add that I cannot make definite opinion as I am only on my 2nd 12oz bag of Paradise Roasters Espresso Nuevo (blend).

My setup: LM Strada 17 gram basket, Alexia with PID (set at 198F), beans used starting 4 days post roast; Mazzer Super Jolly with doser (use <150# ground ), bottomless portafilter, weigh ground beans with 0.1g scale to 18 gram +/- 0.3 gram, volume 1.5 to 2 oz (immediate after stop extraction), brew ratio 0.55 to 0.65, tamp is nutation followed by N-S-E-W tamp with Espro tamper.

My background: I drink exclusively espresso. After long research including HB Alexia review and discussing with Chris Coffee customer service, I chose the Alexia with PID. I have been very pleased with it for the past two years. The only time I wish I had a different machine is Thanksgiving when I make 18-24 cappuccinos for the in-laws. Luckily they know good cappuccinos takes time from my Alexia.

My thoughts on this problem:

1. It may very well be true that Strada/VST baskets reveal a grinder's level of inconsistency. My understanding of the argument is that the hole size distribution for Strada/VST baskets is very narrow (i.e., hole size is held to a tight tolerance), while the hole size distribution for most other baskets falls over a much wider range (i.e., hole size is not held to a tight tolerance.) If the grinder is producing different particle size distributions each time it's used, then the basket with narrow hole distribution will reveal that and the basket with wider hole distribution may not. I'm not arguing for or against this theory, but it's what I think was the conclusion reached by some of the posters to the thread you cited.

2. The consistency of the SJ may depend somewhat on how full the hopper is. When you do your comparisons, make sure the bean level in the hopper is about the same. In particular, you'll see more variations in grind as the beans are running out.

3. I don't know the Alexia, but it's conceivable that there's not enough headroom in the Strada/VST basket for the machine. After all, you were using a triple basket before, which presumably has a lot more headroom. That said, I would expect to see some evidence of channeling if the puck was hitting the shower screen and breaking up. Perhaps it's just barely hitting the shower screen, causing some minor channeling that you're not seeing out of the bottom of the PF. You might try dosing down a little, say to 17g or even 16g, and grinding finer to get the same flow rate.

Thanks Peppersass for your reply.

My theory of why I need to prolonged WDT is because of information in section 1 above of your message.

I use no hopper with the Mazzer SJ as it will not clear cabinet. I am using old tamper to prevent the popcorning of beans. I'll have to re-read threads here at HB regarding this.

I do not think headroom is problem as I see spent puck is still flat. Not mentioned in my original message, is I also have lack of consistency using the original Quickmill double basket dosed with 15g and 16 gram bean. The inconsistency occurs when I do not use prolonged (>30 seconds) Weiss distribution technique with the original double basket. Even with 16 gram dose (yes the level of ground bean is near top of basket rim post extraction) in double basket, there is still flat spent puck (and no channeling seen and symmetric centered extraction cone). I always use a bottomless portafilter.

BTW, the K10 grinder you list in your profile was one of the planned grinder upgrades nixed by the Boss (wife).

mdmvrockford wrote:I use no hopper with the Mazzer SJ as it will not clear cabinet. I am using old tamper to prevent the popcorning of beans. I'll have to re-read threads here at HB regarding this.

This may be part of your issue. I went through quite an ordeal trying to single dose my Robur (that's essentially what you are doing). My finding was that using a weight to hold down the beans causes too much variation in grinds. When the throat has enough beans to hold the weight up, the grind was finer than when the beans ran out and were unweighted. This change in grind caused uneven pours and inconsistent quality. I ended up using a column of beans without any weighting, being sure to refill the column after every shot. Try that before you buy a new grinder. The other issue you seem to be struggling with is the VST basket which is very challenging. I don't know that it produces a superior quality shot unless you are using true commercial quality equipment whereas the more traditional baskets seem to do just fine. One more consideration with the VST baskets is that at least for me, the pours don't look as pretty as I used to see with my LM or Synesso baskets but the taste is good so I don't watch my pours as often any more.

One more suggestion. Without beating a dead horse, try using a cheap digital scale and weigh your grinds and shots. You will learn a lot about consistency.

mdmvrockford wrote:What I have noticed is I must use Weiss distribution techniques (WDT) for at least 30 seconds to get any consistency with the LM Strada (VST) basket.

There are two things that surprised me about your post. First, the WDT helps to alleviate clumpy grinds and uneven distribution in the basket. I would not expect a particularly clumpy grind from a dosered SJ, nor should 30 seconds of stirring the grinds be significantly more effective in fixing uneven distributions than, say, 3 seconds.

I second the recommendations to maintain a bean load in the hopper, and try downdosing. You should also sample different coffees. Jim Schulman's study of filter baskets earlier this year suggests that the VST baskets shine at more acidic, lighter roasted coffees (hardly an accurate description of Paradise Espresso Nuevo).

mdmvrockford wrote:The only time I wish I had a different machine is Thanksgiving when I make 18-24 cappuccinos for the in-laws.

This is the second surprise. Two dozen cappuccinos on a SBDU machine? I hope they appreciate their son-in-law!

mitch236 wrote:One more suggestion. Without beating a dead horse, try using a cheap digital scale and weigh your grinds and shots. You will learn a lot about consistency.

Mitch, I do weigh ground beans and extracted espresso. That is how I was able to report the 18 grams +/- 0.3 gram; reason I say +/-0.3 gram is I can't get exactly to 0.1 gram with adding or substacting ground beans. I'm just too impatient and fingers too stubby to pick up or take off 0.1gram. And I've read most palates can detect differences >= 0.3grams so that is why I set my cutoff there. The scale I have is accurate to 0.1gram and I have calibration masses (200g and 500g) and scale is checked at least weekly and if needed calibrated. I also weigh the extracted shots. Hence that is how I could report the brew ratios in original message. Sorry if it was not clear in my original post above.

Sorry, I didn't read your op well enough I guess!!

TO Rapid Coffee:
I am honored that creator of WDT has contacted me!

I should have stated that I do NOT see clumps from my dosed SJ. I mainly use your WDT because I want to ensure even distribution in the portafilter regardless of basket used. Prior to the LM Strada/VST basket I'd just do ~5 seconds stirring to doubly ensure my distribution was even. I do rotate the basket as the ground beans are going into the basket. I do not use your suggested yogurt cup when grinding directly into filter basket then place basket into portafilter (no spring clip) (teflon tape for tack) then do the WDT. Just by chance since I was noting lack of consistency, I changed one variable and that was the length of stirring with the needle to >30 seconds (stirring is always of entire bed and I try to make as random pattern as possible).

I'll have to try Mitch's column recommendation. I was hoping for notarized certified letter stating I need new grinder

RapidCoffee wrote:This is the second surprise. Two dozen cappuccinos on a SBDU machine? I hope they appreciate their son-in-law!

Yes, my in-laws appreciate their son-in-law's efforts. 12 inlaws and 2 cappucinos or lattes for each person over course of 8 hours. But every year (including just this past T'giving) I have to explain to them the reason for delay. I make two to three cappucinos or lattes at a time so that the extracted espresso dose not get too cold then steam the milk for latte art; Obviously major P.I.A. and time spent getting temperature from steam back to brew temperture (force new reservoir water into boiler and then flush grouphead etc. etc.)

Michael, I think you are inadvertently overdosing.

My experience with the Nuevo is that it is a "light, low density". In the 18g VST I would constantly fill 16.5 grams. That's 1.5g below the stated capacity on the basket. As are reference, with other 3 top tier espresso blands, I would constantly fill 18.2 - 18.5.

So, to use an unscientific language: the Nuevo is about 2g lighter than the others.

If you have 18g in your 17g Strada basket, you are 1g over (compared to mine). If it was me, it would have been full at 15.5g - 16g max.

I have a feeling that this is at least part of where your problem is.

Also, 3 sec vs. 30 sec of WDT. I'm thinking (I might be wrong) that mixing that long will cause a second unwanted distribution: you will send the fines into the bottom and the coarse particles into the top, making a dense layer at the bottom and a porous layer at the top. I am not sure if it is good for the in the cup end result and for consistency.

Also, mutating. If you are doing a WDT, why is the need for mutating? Are you not trusting your WDT? I think you might be manipulating your puck way too much.