mdmvrockford wrote:Still looking for someone on HB using the LM Strada/VST basket with SBDU machine and non-commercial grinder (like my Mazzer SJ). What I really like to hear from is other HB users with MazzerSJ or Baratza Vario level grinder with the VST/LM Strada basket and get their opinion.

It's funny to think that this site's readership has progressed so far into the high end of grinders that we don't consider a Super Jolly a commercial grinder. I disagree; it is a commercial grinder and you should be able to make great shots with it. It sounds like a lot of your problems are as simple as learning to find a best dose for a given coffee and basket combo, and perhaps thinking that you should be able to get good results with any combination of basket and beans with a relatively fixed dose. It also sounds like you're trying to hammer out your dose preparation routine.

On that subject, I've read a lot of posts from you saying you'd try various things, but I'm curious what you think after trying them. How did cutting out nutation go? If you're very aggressive with nutation, you'll likely find that skipping it will cause a drastic increase in the flow of your shot. One corollary to that is if you're haphazard in the way that you nutate, you may find that your flow rate is inconsistent. My advice would be to do it lightly and at the very least the same every time, or don't do it at all.

How has your dose exploration gone? Changing the dose in an informed way is difficult when you're new to tasting espresso "diagnostically," but varying it in an uninformed but structured and analytical way is the key to learning how and why to change the dose. Generally, as was stated, if you're having trouble with consistent flow shot to shot and the problem isn't your distribution, you should be going down. And if you're finding the coffee too bitter and/or weak at that lower dose, then it's probably time to change baskets or change coffees. Anyway, I'd love to read what things you've tried and what your thoughts are on those things.

Shadowfox,
I was basing my comment of Mazzer SJ grinder not "commercial level" for the VST basket based on Malachi (Chris Tacy's) comment How filter baskets affect espresso taste and barista technique.

I have implemented changes as outlined in my prior "summary of recommendations" earlier post: La Marzocco Strada (VST) basket with Quickmill Alexia PID & Mazzer Super Jolly. First change was decreasing dose of Paradise Roasters Espresso Nuevo by one gram. This has helped with consistency of this particular coffee.

But like any good HB / espresso enthusiast, I wanted to implement next change ASAP. Currently I have no true light roast. Since I have no lightly roasted bean , the best I could do is the "on deck" espresso --> medium roast Johnson Brothers Coffees (JBC) (Madison, WI) single origin Ethiopia Yirgacheffe. To my noob eye, beans look same shade of roast as the current Paradise Roasters Nuevo. I cannot comment on consistency as I only am taking out 4 double shots worth out of deep freeze of the Yirghacheffe. I only use one roast at a time as I do not want to make major change to the Mazzer SJ stepless grinder. (I am too anal to trust even marking the collar for each bean as I make little adjustment ) Also this is my first time with JBC so commenting on consistency is difficult.

The true use of lightly roasted will be when I go back into Chicago next week to get some Intelligentsia Black Cat. This bean has been used by me for years. And I am aware of its taste. "LaDan" stated this is a light roast and so did Intelligentsia Broadway barista who I spoke with yesterday when asked for their light roasted espresso offerings.

Looking at the nutation video, I would have to say mine is very subtle and I think it is consistent as I always use bottomless portafilter to watch extraction and extractions appear textbook like (as some others have said "espresso porn"...I just love that term and see it used so often on HB ) (I am aware that textbook extractions can still taste off - the "espresso porn" is just one variable not sole variable). I'll remove this variable (nutation) third.

Cool. I saw your earlier outline; I was asking about results. It's hard in the instant-results world to wrap around how long it takes to source good beans, change coffees, etc. I would also consider Black Cat Classic to be light for an espresso blend. That said, I wouldn't necessarily call it light for the type of roast that will work best in a VST basket—middle of the road at best—but it should work very well in the VST basket.

If what you have now looks as dark as Nuevo, that's likely a sign that it's not going to be suited as well for the VST basket, but there are no absolutes without tasting. Eyeballing a roast after it's done is impossible, since the actual roast degree is determined hugely by how quickly it's roasted in addition to how dark it looks on the outside. In the mean time you should be able to evaluate dose and preparation variations with the coffee on hand... have you tried any of those? You should try a heavy-handed nutation if you haven't ever done it, just to see what it's all about. You might actually find it lets you use a much coarser grind at the same dose, which could help a bit with your current coffee.

shadowfax wrote:It's funny to think that this site's readership has progressed so far into the high end of grinders that we don't consider a Super Jolly a commercial grinder. I disagree; it is a commercial grinder and you should be able to make great shots with it.

Indeed. Yesterday I managed to get invited behind the counter of one of the better espresso cafes in our area, and noted that one of their two grinders was a Super Jolly. On further inquiry, though, I found out it was the decaf grinder . The main grinder was a big Anfim.

tekomino wrote:I don't think it is arbitrary or even undeserved... I used these baskets for last couple of months and I honestly tasted very, very few coffees that I can say came out better using VST basket than Synesso or LM double... And I am not alone. I could comfortably live without them and not miss them.

My own experience is that as long as you start with good coffee and use a good (consistent) grinder, it's possible to make good shots using most any basket. Sure, with most machines you have to be careful not to use a basket that's too small for the dose or too large for the dose, but assuming you've matched the basket, dose and machine, you should be able to get a good result.

What I like about the VST system, aside from the build quality and precise hole size/distribution, both of which make me feel good , is the fact that there's a series of baskets matched closely to the dose, plus or minus one gram. Thus, the height of the puck and it's depth below the ridge is more or less constant across the wide range of doses used for espresso.

Before getting the VST baskets, I would vary the dose in my LM-like ridgeless double anywhere from 13g to 19g. The LM double could accomodate an even greater dose range. It seemed to me that the rather large variation in height above the puck from one end of the range to the other introduced another variable that sometimes made it harder to dial in coffees and sometimes made it more difficult to keep the puck intact (I found the LM double particularly difficult to use in this respect.)

Peppersass wrote:My own experience is that as long as you start with good coffee and use a good (consistent) grinder, it's possible to make good shots using most any basket.

Define "good coffee." Your definition can certainly impact the truth of this comment... Heck, a lot of people use their setup to assess a good coffee. If I can't pull a nice shot with coffee x, then it sucks, at least as espresso, right?

What I like about the VST system, aside from the build quality and precise hole size/distribution, both of which make me feel good , is the fact that there's a series of baskets matched closely to the dose, plus or minus one gram. Thus, the height of the puck and it's depth below the ridge is more or less constant across the wide range of doses used for espresso.

You still have to grind finer for whatever given dose when you use a Strada basket. This can be 'worked around' for a lot of coffees, and you naturally do it—setting the grind where it needs to be to get the shot you want. It doesn't always work as well as what you can do in other baskets though, and sometimes it can be impossible to get something very good with it. Nuevo from Paradise, as Dennis mentioned, is an example of such a coffee. Switch out the basket and it dials in pretty easily. There's much more to getting a shot right than showerhead screen clearance, especially on an E61 or a La Marzocco.

shadowfax wrote:You still have to grind finer for whatever given dose when you use a Strada basket.

True, and I should have qualified my earlier remarks with the caveat that I drink mostly light-roasted SOs, and the finer grind required for VST baskets works well with these coffees.

I haven't spent any time at all playing with PNW-style blends and the like in VST baskets. About the closest I've come is Klatch's Out of Africa blend, which is a medium roast. That one worked pretty well in the Strada 22g basket.

One way around the requirement for a finer grind, say for a more darkly roasted blend, would be to increase the dose one basket size so you can grind coarser. An example might be going from the 18g basket to the 20g basket. 'Course that wouldn't work if you had to go above the 22g basket .