It's hard not to get the feeling that some kind of arbitrary and artificial assumptions are starting to get scarred into stubborn mythology regarding VSTs being suitable for use with light roasts only.

If someone concludes that these baskets work particularly well for light-roasted SOs or blends, that's great, but that is saying something entirely different. (And for the record, yes, I'd agree, and that the finer grinds enabled by the VSTs give me ~18g extractions of such coffees that are significantly improved to my own taste than I have been able to achieve otherwise.

But I (among other members of this and other boards) have also used the the VSTs with more than a few big/ dark/ bittersweet/ chocolate/ comfort/ leather/ tobacco coffees, with richer - and to my taste preferable - results too. So to dismiss them for these other styles across all machines and circumstances would be wasting an excellent option and tool in any quest for optimizing taste.

Anvan wrote:But I (among other members of this and other boards) have also used the the VSTs with more than a few big/ dark/ bittersweet/ chocolate/ comfort/ leather/ tobacco coffees, with richer - and to my taste preferable - results too. So to dismiss them for these other styles across all machines and circumstances would be wasting an excellent option and tool in any quest for optimizing taste.

I don't think it is arbitrary or even undeserved... I used these baskets for last couple of months and I honestly tasted very, very few coffees that I can say came out better using VST basket than Synesso or LM double... And I am not alone. I could comfortably live without them and not miss them.

Now of course you might prefer punchier PNW smash mouth style espresso so they work better for your palate ...

RapidCoffee wrote:This hypothesis surfaced shortly after I introduced the WDT. I'm not sure where it originated, but credit may be due to Mr. H-B himself (Dan Kehn). Size separation may occur when some particulate mixtures (e.g., sand and gravel) are stirred or shaken. Coffee grinds, however, are clumpy, oily, static-y, and irregular in shape, and such behavior seems highly unlikely. ....

Thank you for the clarification John. That makes sense. And to be fair to others, I came up with this thought all on my own.

mdmvrockford wrote:...I am still hoping there is someone on HB that has experience with LM Strada/VST filter baskets paired with non-commercial/non-titan level grinder (such as my Mazzer SJ) and non-commercial machine (like my Alexia with PID). Any takers?

Before getting the M7K, I used the Macap M4 with VST's baskets, although these were used with the prosumer La Marzocco GS/3 so this combination may not fully precisely match your criteria. Prior to the VSTs, I had used the standard (non-Strada) La Marzocco and Synesso baskets. (The M4 probably compares closer to a Mazzer Mini than your SJ, which most would agree is a significantly better machine.)

It was, as I had described elsewhere on another thread, not the easiest transition, but certainly one that proved more than worthwhile, especially given how much I learned along the way. Of course there will be differences across machines based on the group (for example, the E61's pre-infusion will probably give you some options or advantages compared to a non-plumbed GS/3) or machine or pump type (how does it ramp to brewing temperature) and so forth. However, it seems unlikely that there would be any a priori show-stoppers for success.

I did not nutate or Stockfleth or WDT with the M4/VST combination, but I did find improvements in distribution and evenness when sifting the grinds into the filter basket instead of simply dumping or dosing them. That's kind of an "ultimate" distribution technique that some may consider a step beyond even WDT but for the current purposes of this thread, you can consider them to have the same purpose and in the same light.

When moving to the M7K, however, there were significant differences in that grinder's design (68mm 400RPM conical compared to the M4's smaller/faster/flat-burr system) and a much larger exit path that produces (to my experience and impression) "fluffier" and more evenly ground coffee. This has for the most part eliminated those extra distribution/dosing or other techniques from my preparation process - although sifting particularly "sticky" or clump-prone coffee (very dark roasts, usually) still rewards the evenness of the pour as evaluated with a bottomless portafilter. This, though, is only to a limited degree so that my own jury is out regarding such visuals translating into the actual quality-in-cup (I believe I remember Jim Schulman commenting that the slightly prettier pours mean little or nothing to taste, and I have no experiences that argue otherwise).

tekomino wrote:...Now of course you might prefer punchier PNW smash mouth style espresso so they work better for your palate ...

Ouch! I had no sooner clicked "Submit" than I heard your footsteps, Dennis, knowing your views and how well you've documented them along the way.

Your knowledge and long history of real contribution here and elsewhere stands on its own, and so my real point is contrary to neither your own taste nor considerable and informed experience - only that (and I'd hoped my in-line disclaimers had made this clear) dismissing any reasonable device, unconsidered, leads to missing out on some possible positive outcomes. The critical fact is that you and I both did try them out and then decided what the product did - and did not do - for us. [Insert disclaimer here regarding "mileage" and "variation"...]

(And lord knows, the last thing I want to do is wake up that particular culture war again, and I'm guessing you too. -T)

Oh we agree, alright. I try every coffee I order with both VST and my Synesso and LM baskets and then go with whatever we like better. I am finding that we prefer Synesso and LM doubles 9 out of 10 times.

So when someone says they have trouble with VST basket I say try different basket

I don't want to add to the VST war but for that 18 gm shot, I can't find a better fit than the VST 18 gm basket. My previous fav Synesso double would be stuffed and the triple was too hard to distribute below the rim. Outside of its advantageous size, I don't think it's better or worse than my other baskets.

tekomino wrote:So when someone says they have trouble with VST basket I say try different basket

Agreed. I like my Strada basket, and for my taste in coffee, it works better than my other baskets much of the time, particularly for the coffees I like most, many of which aren't actually intended for espresso. That said, if I could only have one basket to use, ever, I'm not sure it'd be that basket.

shadowfax wrote:Agreed. I like my Strada basket, and for my taste in coffee, it works better than my other baskets much of the time, particularly for the coffees I like most, many of which aren't actually intended for espresso. That said, if I could only have one basket to use, ever, I'm not sure it'd be that basket.

mitch236 wrote:I don't want to add to the VST war but for that 18 gm shot, I can't find a better fit than the VST 18 gm basket. My previous fav Synesso double would be stuffed and the triple was too hard to distribute below the rim. Outside of its advantageous size, I don't think it's better or worse than my other baskets.

I am glad that Nicholas and Mitch's opinion of the VST basket is same as mine so far (remember my OP where I am just on my 2nd-12oz bag of espresso using this LM Strada/VST basket)---> it is a tool in my "espresso arsenal." It is NOT my sole tool (I.e. it is NOT my sole basket and so far likely will not be my primary basket). From the comments so far, I need to get a Synessco double basket too.

As Mitch hinted there seems to be a "VST war." I am glad that so far that this thread has not become one with VST proponents vs. VST opponents voicing their opinion and thus thread drift (and maybe needing thread "cool-down period).

Still looking for someone on HB using the LM Strada/VST basket with SBDU machine and non-commercial grinder (like my Mazzer SJ). What I really like to hear from is other HB users with MazzerSJ or Baratza Vario level grinder with the VST/LM Strada basket and get their opinion. Judging by comment of the Chris Coffee customer service rep I spoke with after I bought the LM Strada basket, my use is unique and thus rare.

I use a VST 15 gram basket on my Brewtus. I am currently loading up to 17 grams using a Versalab grinder. I have to say I don't find the differences in extraction as profound as others claim.

The grind has to a little finer and I suppose there may be some effect on flavor but what is better or not would probably depend on different things such as personal tastes, the type of coffee used, machine used, settings, other....

They are well made quality baskets with a standardized screen hole pattern. I find I can live with or without them in a home setting.