good points.

Hi guys,

I agree, good points there Ken. Usually the way I work is cutting the shot when it blonds which is simple, effective and allows you to eliminate all the 'nasty' stuff in the cup (not always lighter means bad though, but that's a different story). Sometimes I try to measure the time in my head, just to see whether I'm in the ball park and more than often 25-27s equals the moment when the stream blonds and I turn off the pump. With that last SO that wasn't the case and so I've decided to ask whether other people experienced similar problems when pulling normal doubles (ie. 50-60ml). It's not that I don't like how my shots taste now, it's simply looking for something a bit different.

I do have a DIYed preinfusion system on my Elektra, but pressure build up is still very fast so it's not comparable to a vibe/e61 preinfusion. You can of course see how fast the beading goes and based on that judge whether the shot is too fast or too slow, but it happens way faster.

Regards,
dsc.

The people who brought espresso to the masses (i.e. baristas in Italy) had 2-oz cups to fill, so I suppose the target was to fill them. Developing procedures to make these as tasty as possible, from blending and roasting, to grinding, tamping, and pulling shots, was probably part of the development of what we now know as espresso.

If looked at this way, there is some interest in the original question re: how to pull a true double. As Jim S. frequently points out, for example, most espresso equipment probably has 1-oz solos and 2-oz doubles as a "standard" design feature.

Setting a volumetric goal (e.g. 14g double) seems to me to be a very useful exercise for learning about espresso extraction. It happens to be the way I got started, particularly after reading Mark P.'s article. The process of manipulating the multitude of variables that influence the taste of espresso, one at a time, until once gets good results, is a good way to get to know a lot about espresso.

PC

Mark Prince's 2003 article:

http://coffeegeek.com/opinions/co...emoment/06-10-2003

PC

If you do the math, the shots that Mark pulls in this article are somewhere between lungo and cafe crema territory (brew ratios of ~20%). 3oz of liquid from 17.5g of coffee? Wow. In my experience, it is the rare double that reaches 60ml without blonding, much less 75-90ml... and I'm talking crema volume, not liquid.

Hi guys,

I've read Mark's article and I agree that most people tend to brew ristrettos, but sometimes I find them a bit too intense. I also agree with what John said:

In my experience, it is the rare double that reaches 60ml without blonding

With the Elektra I usually stay below 15g with the dose, so it is indeed rather rare to get a full 60ml without blonding. That's actually the main reason why I decided to start this topic.

Regards,
dsc.

If it tastes good - it is good.
Who cares what the volume is?
Seriously.

malachi wrote:If it tastes good - it is good. Who cares what the volume is?

Chris, you are in a better position than most to judge the quality of a pour. If you want to brew a 3oz double and pronounce it good, that's one thing. But as people develop their technique, it helps to offer them guidelines. The Italian "golden rule" of a 50ml double from 14g, pulled at 9 bar and 88C in ~25 seconds, is one such guideline. If you cannot achieve a decent pour using similar parameters, it often points to a problem in coffee, equipment, or technique.

Using the "cut a shot when it blonds" guideline, 90ml doubles are little more than an oddity (at least, in my experience). So when a noted figure in the coffee world starts advocating 75-90ml doubles, it's confusing and misleading, and spawns threads such as this one.

Or perhaps Mark P has the magic touch. That sure looked like a yummy shot in his article.

RapidCoffee wrote:The Italian "golden rule" of a 50ml double from 14g, pulled at 9 bar and 88C in ~25 seconds, is one such guideline. If you cannot achieve a decent pour using similar parameters, it often points to a problem in coffee, equipment, or technique.

But that's just not true.
If I gave you a pound of Stumptown Hairbender, or a pound of Vivace Dolce, or a pound of any of hundreds of coffees, and said "pull a good shot within these parameters" - you would fail... regardless of equipment or technique.
So unless you're saying that using one of these coffees is "a problem" - then having a newbie follow "the golden rule" is simply going to convince them that they suck or that their equipment sucks or that their coffee sucks.

malachi wrote:But that's just not true.
If I gave you a pound of Stumptown Hairbender, or a pound of Vivace Dolce, or a pound of any of hundreds of coffees, and said "pull a good shot within these parameters" - you would fail... regardless of equipment or technique.
So unless you're saying that using one of these coffees is "a problem" - then having a newbie follow "the golden rule" is simply going to convince them that they suck or that their equipment sucks or that their coffee sucks.

What part of it is wrong? The brew temp? Espresso Italiano advocates 88°C ± 2°C, and I agree that many blends do well with a higher brew temp. But I think it's still a useful guideline, whereas advocating 90ml normale doubles guarantees a perception of suckage for almost everyone, regardless of coffee and kit. Well, for me, anyway.

88c = 190.4F
the +/-2c gives you a range of 186.8F to 194.0F

Stumptown Hairbender is commonly brewed at 197F to 200F (depending on style)
Vivace Dolce at 203.5F
Ecco Caffe Reserve at 201.5F
49th Parallel Epic at 200F
Etc

14g double rules out almost any "new american" style espresso blends (From Hairbender through Black Cat and so on). It also rules out most blends used in USBC and WBC comps. It also rules out a ton of high grown washed SO espressos.
Most of these coffees are best at doses between 17 and 20 grams for a double so we're talking about a significant variance as a percentage of dose.

Even the 50ml (1.7oz) double doesn't work for some great coffees. There are a bunch of coffees (James Hoffmann has written a little about this) where stopping the flow earlier kills the top end of the coffee resulting in imbalance. These coffees regularly are pulled at 2oz to 2.25oz. Coffees like the Cuvee Coffee Meritage are pulled at 1oz to less than that for a double.


The Vivace Dolce is a seminal american espresso. It has played a huge part in the development of speciality espresso in NA. If you had the world's greatest barista dose 14 grams into a double basket (ground on a 3 phase Robur fine enough to give you the 50ml in 25 second), then had them pull a full 1.7oz of it - on a completely tricked out Synesso running at 194F.... I am 100% certain the result would be entirely undrinkable.

So... is it really a good idea to tell people who are just learning what espresso should be like - who are just learning how to make espresso - who are working with entry level equipment -- that THIS is what they should do?

malachi wrote:So... is it really a good idea to tell people who are just learning what espresso should be like - who are just learning how to make espresso - who are working with entry level equipment -- that THIS is what they should do?

Point taken. Counterpoint: as a teacher, I lie to my students all the time. And I'm completely upfront about it. While people are learning, it helps to have reasonable guidelines. This is true in all fields. You give basic principles first, then discuss exceptions as part of the refinement process.

For example, in chess we are told to develop our pieces, castle early, control the center of the board... But if you look at examples from grandmaster play, these guidelines are broken all the time. Are the guidelines bad? No, they are general principles that work well much of the time, and greatly assist in the learning process. Should they be followed blindly? Of course not.

OK, enough analogies, let's get back to espresso (hey, at least I didn't use cars ). Are there basic guidelines that work reasonably well for pulling "true" doubles? After all, that's the subject of this thread. I believe there are such guidelines, and the 45-60ml double lies well within the norm... whereas Mark's 75-90 ml "traditional double" falls into the category of exceptions.

forum newbie.....but I'm having the same challenges described by the OP.

After reading this thread I decided to try pulling true doubles. and it is not easy

Once I tried the naked PF + triple basket three years ago, I never looked back. I've been pulling risteros without using anything else. My skills are lacking doing anything else.

I will continue to work on my technique. I think doing this fundamental shot with excellence is a worthwhile goal.

RapidCoffee wrote:Are there basic guidelines that work reasonably well for pulling "true" doubles? After all, that's the subject of this thread. I believe there are such guidelines, and the 45-60ml double lies well within the norm... whereas Mark's 75-90 ml "traditional double" falls into the category of exceptions.

Sure... you want to pull doubles that are 45-60ml in volume?
Here is my opinion which I'm sure a half dozen people are going to dispute but so be it.

1 - choose a coffee that will give you that sort of volume. Let's be realistic... you simply are not going to be able to pull good tasting shots of that volume from all coffees as many coffees are not appropriate for the volume. Trying to pull shots at a volume the coffee is not formulated for is as pointless as trying to pull shots at a brew temp the coffee responds poorly to. This one step will get you 75% of the way there.
2 - use a very high quality grinder. *
3 - either use a machine that doesn't have a dramatic drop off in brew temp over 30 seconds or use a coffee that responds to a decreasing brew temp (even to low temps). **
4 - get a good consistent bed of coffee in the portafilter basket without gaps either in the bed or between the bed and the portafilter wall (don't tap or rap the edge of the portafilter is a good short cut).
5 - either use coffee only at its peak or choose a coffee that has a lot of naturals and semi-washed coffees (and likely some robusta).
6 - Be flexible on dose volume. ***
7 - Match basket to coffee / dose. ****

* I'd guess that something like a Max Hybrid is probably at the low end in this case.
** This has some implications for your flush routines and may require you to work at very low boiler pressures making steaming milking challenging to say the least.
*** Be willing to work in a large range of dose volumes based upon the specific coffee you're working with (probably from 13 to 20 grams unless, it seems, you're working on an Elektra in which case I guess you're more limited). Trying to artificially limit your dose volume while also artificially limiting your shot volume is either going to be incredibly frustrating or is going to limit your coffee choices severely.
**** Get a Faema double basket, an LM ridged double, an LM ridgeless double and a Synesso double to start.
Match the basket to the coffee and dose needed.


My question, however, stands.
Why?
This is not a "true" double. It's just an arbitrary so-called "standard" that means little to nothing.
It's the taste in the cup that matters. Not the way it looks. Not the crema volume. Not the volume of the shot nor the time it takes to extract.
It's how it tastes.

Chris

Based on your last post perhaps you can interpret my espresso making experiences limited as they are and answer a couple of questions. I've experimented quite a bit with dose and temperature and flushing and no flush techniques. Most all of my experience is with my home roasted coffees with one exception.

I've come to the conclusion that 14 gm doses give me consistent good drinks that I enjoy most every time. I weigh the dose, use WDT and then distribute NSEW with my finger before (usually) flushing to about 203-205* waiting 25 seconds and pulling the shot (HX QM Anita machine). Usually I go for 1.5-2 oz in 26 seconds or so and most come out that way after minor adjustments to my Compak K3 grinder (sorry but a $1K or more grinder is not in the cards). I also from time to time just lower my PID controlled boiler temperature and pull shots without flushes keeping a similar 199-202* depending on my taste shot temperature. This gives me I find a flatter shot temperature profile when observing the group thermometer. The taste results are generally the same as with flushing.

I've been enjoying Moka Kadir blend (Yemen and Ethiopian coffees) lately and the shots are as described above good and probably Dan would rate them 2.5 or so. Then for the heck of it and partly due to reading these threads I used 19 gm of Moka Kadir in a triple basket and pulled the same shot volume (1.5 oz). This was about the best shot I have ever pulled at home with a taste profile similar to that Tom at Sweet Marias described. It was like eating a bittersweet chocolate bar with strawberries, lemon finish and floral fragrance. It had a richer mouth feel, body and consistency to go along with the taste. Then I did it again. I'm thrilled.

However, for the holidays I treated myself to some Counter Culture Toscano blend to see what a professional espresso roast was all about. Other then noticing that this coffee was easier to dial in for proper time and volume the tastes at 14 gm doses are OK and quite similar to Monkey blend.over a few degree temperature range. I was not seriously impressed so I tried the updosing and it was worse.

So, I understand the point you are making but do we then have to experiment extensively with every coffee we wish to try as espresso? What are the general guidelines to follow to get the best tasting coffee (in your opinion)?

Are there some basic rules about coffee origins, blends or taste profiles we wish to emphasize that tell us what doses, temperatures and volumes to begin experimenting?

Finally, without that expensive grinder (I think my Compak is pretty expensive by the way - as is my Anita and far more then I ever anticipated spending on coffee) and ultra temperature controlled machine can we expect the results you are claiming are in those coffees?
Thanks

malachi wrote:1 - choose a coffee that will give you that sort of volume.
2 - use a very high quality grinder. *
3 - either use a machine that doesn't have a dramatic drop off in brew temp over 30 seconds or use a coffee that responds to a decreasing brew temp (even to low temps). **
4 - get a good consistent bed of coffee in the portafilter basket without gaps either in the bed or between the bed and the portafilter wall (don't tap or rap the edge of the portafilter is a good short cut).
5 - either use coffee only at its peak or choose a coffee that has a lot of naturals and semi-washed coffees (and likely some robusta).
6 - Be flexible on dose volume. ***
7 - Match basket to coffee / dose. ****

I already meet these requirements:
1. Self-correcting. If I don't care for a coffee, I don't order it again.
2. Robur.
3. Vetrano with EricS digital thermometer, recently supplemented by a Spaziale S1. The Vetrano has the typical humped HX profile, but the S1 will be reasonably flat. Both machines should be capable of bringing out the best in a coffee (at least, compared to others in their price range).
4. Based on NPF, no problems there.
5. See #1. Not much robusta in my diet.
6. Typical dose: 16-17g in Vetrano ridgeless double basket, about a gram less in the 53mm S1 double basket. More like 14g in my Gaggia lever. I vary the dose from 14-20g, depending on the coffee.
7. See #6. I pull singles and triples only out of curiosity, tend to prefer doubles.

So I think the question boils down to: is there such a thing as a traditional double? And if so, what are its characteristic features?

No argument about taste being paramount, that's a no-brainer. The whole point of reasonable guidelines is to assist in getting the most out of a coffee. Some roasters supply suggested brew parameters. But what if they don't? Or if you have significantly different equipment?

I believe there is merit in general guidelines for coffee brewing, whether it's espresso or drip or whatever. With that said, I intend to bow out of this discussion while I can still do so gracefully. This doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the thread, which has been quite interesting. But I don't have much more to say, and simply repeating myself isn't going to add much value.

GC7 wrote:So, I understand the point you are making but do we then have to experiment extensively with every coffee we wish to try as espresso? What are the general guidelines to follow to get the best tasting coffee (in your opinion)?

Are there some basic rules about coffee origins, blends or taste profiles we wish to emphasize that tell us what doses, temperatures and volumes to begin experimenting?

Honestly... it's entirely up to you.
I think for a lot of people it's far preferable to standardize on something (or things) like dose or temp or the like and then eliminate coffees that don't give them great results for whatever they've standardized on. Otherwise it's a bit of an overwhelming task (especially if you're paying retail for your coffee).
Personally... I love trying to find the "sweet spots" for any and all coffees. It's a passion for me.
For me it's more about the coffee than the shot.
Shrug - what you want to do is kind of up to what you want and desire out of coffee.

In terms of guidelines...
This is probably the best starting point as sadly there really is no answer other than the ones you come up with yourself. Be aware that if you choose this road - it gets exponentially easier with the number of coffees you've explored. Pattern recognition is a good thing.

RapidCoffee wrote:So I think the question boils down to: is there such a thing as a traditional double? And if so, what are its characteristic features?

The only people that I've heard describe it 'officially' are arguably the two bodies that have the most authority; the Nation if Italy, and the WBC. The WBC's definition as a bit more vague than Italy's, but if you're looking for a 'traditional' double, I'd say that Italy has a say in what that is.

RapidCoffee wrote:I already meet these requirements:
1. Self-correcting. If I don't care for a coffee, I don't order it again.

Not quite the same....
What I said was not that you should choose a coffee you like - but rather choose a coffee that is suitable for the volume of shot you're going for.

RapidCoffee wrote:So I think the question boils down to: is there such a thing as a traditional double? And if so, what are its characteristic features?

Oh... absolutely.
There is the traditional northern italian double. There is the traditional central italian double. There is the traditional southern italian double. There is the traditional austrian double, french double, scandanavian double, seattle double, etc etc etc.