Warning this is long. My first post after reading for many years, but now I'm have a problem I can't seem to cure.

My pucks are channeling and I can't find a cure.

Machine is a Livia 90. When I first bought the machine new, I replaced their 14 gram basket with their 16 gram basket, which was the largest they showed at the time, and have always down dosed between 14.5 and 15 grams.

The grinder was a Rocky MD40, which I had installed a new set of burrs a couple of months before then.
The tamper was one I made back when I first started. It's a solid aluminum, flat base, 2.298" diameter in a basket that measure 2.328".

I roast my own beans and generally use SM's, Monkey or Classic blend, or several different SO's, and have been doing this since about 2,000 but have been basically in auto pilot for the past 10 years, everything was running just fine until several months ago.

I run 2 ounces out before locking in the porta filter. Back when I first got the machine I played with the boiler temps/pressure and flow rates with a thermocouple in the basket and got it where I could make a 2 - 2.5 ounce, 25 second shot and maintain it at 202 degrees start to finish.

Last August my shots started going blond within 10 - 15 seconds and tasting like crap, and they were channeling down the side between the puck and the wall of basket. Researching it, it indicated I was over filling the basket because I was getting an imprint of the screen in the puck when I took it out, so I cut it back to as far as 13 grams.

Right now, everything I do is done very precise until I get this problem worked out. I weigh all beans before grinding, I weigh the porta filter with the grounds in it and I weigh and time the shot every time. All these weights are to 0.1 tenth of a gram. I have a very good, very accurate set of scales I do this on.
Side channeling is no longer the problem, what I'm getting now is worm holes to gopher holes in the puck, sometimes one or two, sometimes several, and sometimes long fault lines more in the middle portion of the puck.

I've been researching and working on the problem a while but figured it's time to get on here and ask for some direct help because I've about run out of options.

Following most suggestion on here, I put the Rocky aside and got me a used Doge commercial grinder. First thing I did was order new burrs for it and converted it to an infinite grind instead of the steps. I've also made a number of other changes. Being used, and checking everything out, the burrs were 13 microns off from matching up perfectly so I made a piece I installed in their place and lapped the disc on the motor so they match up perfectly. A dial indicator that measures to 0.0001" does not even wiggle now and using something similar to plasti-gauge they have a prefect mesh so there is zero grind error. The grinds come out super fluffy. Where 15 grams from the Rocky were so dense they would not be a pile high enough in the basket to level it by raking across the top, the Doge makes a tall mound in the center of the basket with 15 grams.
My next step was to order a bottomless porta filter and triple basket. With that I can see where the shot starts going blond. There have only been a couple of times I've actually had one that squirted a small spray. 99.9% just start going blond too soon and you can see the big blond area start to develop and sometimes you see the pour start moving way off center.

As for distribution, I've tried every voodoo trick ya'll mention on here. The stirring of the grounds with a needle, the twirling the tamper around like a joy stick, the tamping all compass directions and tapping handle down gently on the counter to settle the grounds and not doing anything but tamping. I DO NOT tap the side of the porta filter and never have, even back when that was considered the thing to do. I just flip the thing upside down and dump out any loose grounds. Which I have also learned working on this problem, if you use too large of a tamp, the puck will fall out when you flip it upside down. I made one that only had a .006" clearance on that 16 gram basket and you couldn't get a puck to stay in the basket if you flipped it upside down. Needless to say, that one got cut down to .030" clearance like the others.

I've tried adjusting the OPV. When I first checked the group head pressure, it was 14 bar. I adjusted it down to 10 bar and now I have it on approx. 9.1 bar. Other than having to listen to the OPV squeal more, I've not seen any difference in the channeling. Since I have to add and remove shims to adjust it, I figured 9.1 was close enough to the 9.0 most seem to recommend.

I've read one member on here saying he played with different diffusers plates on his Livia so I went that route also. First, I tried holding it over a light and getting the screen so none of the holes in the diffuser plate matched up for a straight shot through the screen. If you don't check it, there can be as many as four holes in the diffuser that can shoot straight through the screen. I've made several different diffusers where I've totally redesigned the spray holes by make them smaller and more of them, up to 16 holes in one, and I've tried making thinner by as much as .040" to give more room over the puck. I'm still getting holes in every puck.
I've tried almost every style tamp and different diameters but other than if one is too large, the puck won't stay in, I have noticed a real difference. I tried the Euro Convex, the American convex, on cut exactly to the bottom of the basket, flat, C-flat and the grooved. So far, it seems as long as it's .030" smaller than the basket, it really make no difference. If I go down to one that's exactly 58mm, then I have to be careful or it will side channel because all my baskets are way larger than 58mm up to as much as 59mm.

I guess I should also mention, I tamp at 30 pounds. I use a 30 pound spring I build into the handle and calibrate so I when I feel the handle start to float, I know it's exactly 30 pounds.


So far I've been working with only two different baskets, the 16 gram I've had for years and the triple shot that came with the bottomless porta filter. I would prefer to get the 16 gram to working again, because of be able to dose 14 to 14.5 grams of coffee. I have also worked a whole lot with the triple basket and going as high as 19 grams. The screen in the Livia requires the puck to be down .470" just for the dry puck to clear it and that's not leaving any room for expansion, so it's extremely easy to overload a basket with it.


Since this is my first post, I will give you a little background. I've been reading it for many years and using it for my learning how, but never posted because I feel one should know what they are talking about before saying something, and I dang sure didn't know anything about what I was doing.

Back about 2000 I decided I would get my wife an espresso machine so "She" could make her cappuccino's she fell in love with while I was stationed in northern Italy for four years and later in Sicily for one year. Needless to say, I knew absolutely nothing about what I was getting into, and I was thinking I could go down to the department store and buy one of those $150 things off their self, which I did, and she would be good to go. Well, in very short time it went back for a refund and I started doing my homework. My $150 espresso machine idea turned into a Livia 90 Semi-Automatic and a Rocky MD40 grinder. Thinking OK, now we're ready to make some REAL cappuccino's. WRONG!!! In very short order, I learned it took "fresh" coffee beans to make the espresso and that stuff in the cans was not going to cut it. Now, where in Jeffersonville Ga, population a few hundred, is one going to get fresh coffee beans, hell, the nearest stop light is 17 miles away. Well, after about two years of trial and error, untold numbers of Kroger's $1 per gallon outdated milk and learning how to roast my on coffee beans, "I" finally got where I could make a pretty good cappuccino, and the wife is yet to even try making one.

After going through the growing pains and that huge learning curve, things went along in autopilot for many years, until about last August. Things went south and I'm still beating my head against the wall trying to figure out what's going on. Every shot started going blond in about 12-15 seconds. I could grind finer and stop the gushers but they still went blond and were channeling. When things first went bad, every shot was channeling down the side of the basket. Ok, I was overdosing, the puck was pressing against the dispersion screen. Back when I first got the Livia I ordered a larger 16 gram basket and was dosing 15 grams but now that was pressed against the screen when I removed the porta filter so I cut it back to 14.5. Still channeling and blond shots.

Um, the Dodge grinder .. is it for espresso?

If it isn't, you're in for a lot frustration, since you won't get enough fines to block the flow. You'll either grind so fine that the dwell time (time for the first drops to appear) is way too long for this style machine, and you'll get a a cooked shot, bitter and crema-less. If you keep the grind coarse enough to keep the dwell at 3 to 5 seconds, which is what you want for this machine, you'll get a gusher.

Ahh, yes, it's most definitely an espresso grinder. It's a commercial grinder for the professional use. This is the conical version . http://www.1st-line.com/store/pc/Fioren ... 2p3563.htm they look just alike but mine's not a coni. I just realized I made a slight typo error in the name.

"I just flip the thing upside down and dump out any loose grounds."

I wouldnt do that. Just tamp and pull the shot.

To me the question is what changed at that point last year. I dont see the point in changing lots of variables that were not a problem before. In fact you may be noticing now things that existed in the past even when things were working (such as the state of the puck post shot, if you have a three way valve that might disrupt it post shot)

Are you roasting to the same degree? Can you pull a good shot with beans roasted by someone else (starting with a safe commercial blend)? Try taking your system into the most simple state.

Try taking your system into the most simple state.

Fully agree, like prior to August 2013. Hopefully more later after a good night's sleep.

You mention going blonde early and channeling. Can you include a video? You don't really describe any difference between the performance of the two grinders. Is there one, taste, anything? Because almost anything should do better than a rocky.

When you say channeling, do you see evidence in the naked PF during the shot or are you looking at the puck afterward to determine this?

I recently made the change to a different diffuser screen, just a standard e61. It had a slightly different hole arrangement and I've been getting a lot of donut pours. The difference was pretty small, I would definitely use the screen that was working for you before.

I'm watching with interest here. Sounds like a grind issue, but it doesn't make sense. Have you tried the wdm, stiring the coffee with a needle before tamping?

If I could get it back to that state prior to August, I wouldn't be here now. In July I replaced the burrs in the Rocky grinder, and used it for about a month afterwards with no problem. In August I received some a new blend I had not used before but didn't see a problem then. A couple of weeks later I went to Texas and didn't get back until early December. When I got back, I roasted some beans, and after giving them three days rest, I made my first cup, it was a gusher but the grind setting on the Rocky was on eight, the same place it was when I used the last time with that blend. I had to take it to a five to get a 2oz shot in 22 seconds, which is what I normally do, and it still went blond too early. I took the grinder apart and blew it out good with the air hose, cleaned everything, inspected the burrs closes to make sure I had not run a rock or something through it. Burrs still looked brand new, the zero point was the same place it has always been and everything else looked good but when I tried it again, it still took a five setting to get it down to two ounces with an early blond shot. For 10 years, I've always run the Rocky between eight and ten, I've never run it on five and sometimes even to four. I even put the old set of burrs back in it, to no avail. Still can't figure why.

That led to getting the Fiorenzato Doge grinder. As for difference in performance, like comparing a Corvette to a Corvair. It spits out 15 grams of grinds in a few seconds, and they are super fluffy, nothing like what comes out of the Rocky.

As for keeping it simple, that's where I started. Checking the simplest, most basic things that could have gone wrong first. Having to make such a drastic change on the grind setting, one would think something with the grinder. I cleaned it, tried the old burrs back in it, ordered another new set for it to try and nothing made a difference with it.

Next step would think maybe something with the new espresso blend. I tried some SO coffees I had recently roasted and had my brother pick me up five pounds of fresh roasted in Atlanta. Nothing was any different with a made my shots. I've gone burned through about 15 pounds of beans, mine and others, nothing has improved.

Next logical step was to just swap out the grinder. That made a huge difference in the type grind and how much more volume there was in the porta filter, but did nothing for the channeling problem. I'm also having to run it what seem to be awful fine to get my right amount of espresso in the proper time. I used a depth mic and marked it every .001" inch of clearance between the burrs and I'm running it sometimes as close as .004" to get it down to a 50 gram shot with 17.5 grams of grounds in 25 seconds. Knowing nothing about thiese big commercial grinders, don't know if that's normal or not. Regardless I'm still having the same problem.

From that point, I start wondering about the pressure, so I make up a gauge to check it. It was 14 bar but I found out, that's where they came set at from the factory. I adjusted it down anyway, to a current setting of 9.1 bar.

I did more research on the Livia and get the feeling that a prone to channel and very picky about the dosing. That led me to try something different with the diffuser. NOT the screen, but the diffuser plate itself. I've made several different ones trying different things but nothing I've tried has made a difference with that either. By the way, I happen to have a lathe and mill and a pretty good machinist, among one of my many hobbies so it makes it pretty easy to try something different like the tamps an any modifications I want to try.

Somewhere in the mix, I've run the gamut on different types and sizes of tamps and different tamping techniques thinking what the hell, maybe while I was in Texas those few months I'd forgotten how.

As for video, I'm not sure I know how to do it. I have video on my Galaxy S4 phone and the iPad Air, I guess I could try one of those and see if I can figure out how to get it from one of those to here.

As for the past, every now and then I would get a blond shot, or have channel or something go wrong with one but I would just dump it, do it again and they normally came out fine. As for the channeling, no, it has never been a regular problem. I've always looked at my pucks before I know them out.

Also, espresso/cappuccino's are not something daily. My wife my go for a couple of months and not want one, then hit a spell where she want's one every night. I know in Italy they are a breakfast drink, but she prefers them in the evening.

The bad problem is, until I got started with all the mess, I didn't even drink coffee, and still not real fond of it. So tasting umpteen hundreds of espresso's to make sure they were coming out ok sucks. That's why I've never made my own espresso blend. Never wanted to go through all the tasting to make one.

You've said a lot but you still don't seem to differentiate between channeling and early blonding. How are you determining it is channeling? Are you using a naked PF? Explain how the Doge is different than the rocky in terms of things that relate to the problem. More even pours etc. Do you even have a naked PF? Because you have to have one to solve this.

90% chance this is grind, distribution, dose, or technique. With the rocky I'd bet $100 it was the grind. I've no experience with the Doge. If it is channeling (not just blonding) that's typically a distribution problem.

When we say put it back where it was we meant undo the changes you have made to the machine and get the hardware in its "known good" configuration.

If you want help you need to answer the questions we have posed or people will just tune you out.

This is from my first post:
"My next step was to order a bottomless porta filter and triple basket. With that I can see where the shot starts going blond. There have only been a couple of times I've actually had one that squirted a small spray. 99.9% just start going blond too soon and you can see the big blond area start to develop and sometimes you see the pour start moving way off center."

This is why I was reluctant to even make my first post, no one reads long post, so you have to retype everything a half dozen. They just assume the person has to be a dump**s or they wouldn't be asking the same question that has been asked untold numbers of times before and respond in that manor. I know because I've read almost every post that has been made on here that might have anything to do with my problem and yes, I do realize it's probably one of the most common questions asked on here.

I typed my post in Word and pasted it here, and it deleted all the spaces between the lines. I went back and tried to put them back in but missed some.

I'm fully aware improper grind is one of the main causes. That's why I got another grinder. While the Fiorenzato Doge Commercial Espresso Grinder might not be that well known in the US, its very popular and respected grinder in Europe.

I'm also aware that distribution is the other, that's why I've tried every trick I've been able to find and every style and different size tamps.

I've also read how the Livia 90 is very dose sensitive and is prone to channeling, that's why I've tried all the tricks and adjustments others have used to help their problem.

As for going back to the Pre August setup, been there, done that a dozen times. I have an extensive background in electronics, mechanics and hydraulics, and I'm an extremely good troubleshooter, I'm fully aware of the old saying, always go from a known good point to the unknown. One of my dads favorite quotes was "lets just chase one rabbit at the time". Before I try something different, I return everything back to it's original state.

Anyway, I've gone back and fourth editing this a dozen times trying to keep it from sounding so negative but it looks like that ain't gonna happen. No matter how I try, everything sounds like a I have huge case of the a** which I don't, but I'm sure with this response, what few that even took the time to look at it after reading the title, having seen this same question so many times before, are not going to going to respond.

I was just hoping someone having been there, done that might have that one suggestion that I've missed.

Everything I've learned over the past 14 years (about espresso, I was 14 in 1961) has been by trial and error and I'm not a total dumb**s, I will get this one figured out also, just thought I would see if someone might have that magic bullet I've missed.