Since I am really just starting out, I am sure I will have questions from time to time and the fora here have already been instrumental of my equipment choices. I was hoping to post my questions here rather than starting a new thread for each question and I can update progress and results in a neater package so hopefully someone can also learn from my learning curve.

Obviously, I am not trying to reinvent the wheel and will use the search function first to avoid redundant questions and I apologize should one skip through.

I bought a La spaziale Vivaldi II and a mazzer mini E. So far things are working out well. A shower from the naked portafilter here, a 10 second shot there, but it's nice to know that the issues seem to be mine and mine alone and not these terrific machines which will certainly shallow my learning curve.

My question today is regarding dosage. Jim Schulman's Barista Technique treatise has been my morning prayer book. In it he says:

The nominal doses for espresso are 6 to 7 grams for a single and 12 to 14 grams for a double. Recently, many cafes have raised dose sizes to 8 to 10 grams for a single and 16 to 20 grams for a double.

and then....

As a rule of thumb, a leveled coffee basket full of beans delivers the same amount of coffee as the overloaded basket technique.

Perhaps someone can help me with this as i am missing something, I think. My goal is a properly extracted 1.5 oz. How should I approach dosage? Taking the above 2 statements together implies that a double can be made anywhere from 10-20g but this produces similar results? Shouldn't a 20g puck be better suited for a 2 oz shot rather than a 1.5 oz shot or does it really not matter. Intuitively, the same volume flowing through more coffee in a puck should have a higher extraction rate.

If I am not making sense - it's me not you - and I am happy to clarify....

Italyhound wrote:Perhaps someone can help me with this as i am missing something, I think. My goal is a properly extracted 1.5 oz. How should I approach dosage? Taking the above 2 statements together implies that a double can be made anywhere from 10-20g but this produces similar results?

The optimal dosage depends on several factors, e.g., the desired headspace. Some espresso machines extract better with lots of headspace (down dosed) while others perform better with little or no headspace (up dosed). To make matters even more interesting, the S1 can be fitted with different dispersion blocks to yield different clearances. The stock configuration sold by Chris' Coffee has a thinner dispersion block that allows for ~17 grams:


About 2mm clearance when small
dimple and ridge are visible (link)

In addition to optimal extraction for a given machine, there's also accounting for your personal taste. Andy's proposed brewing ratio is quite enlightening in that regard. BTW, if you really want to make your head hurt, read How do you explore the extraction space?

A 10 gram dose will not produce the same cup as a 20oz dose. Not even close. With 1.5 oz as your target extraction, you are already pulling ristrettos based on a 14g dose. At 20g, you are pulling a very, very tight ristretto. 20g is more in the triple range (3oz extract).

The key is to dose for what works on your machine and be consistent. While machine A may take 20g jammed into a double basket, machine B may not even be able to lock in the portafilter. I dose to a small mound, level off the top, give the PF a gentle downward tap on the tamp pad and sweep level with the top of the basket. That gives me a consistent 17g dose with 1.75oz extracted. It is still ristrettoish and gives me a stronger, more flavorful cup than a full 2oz extraction.

You may want to read (and view the videos) on the Tamp and Dose Techniques Digest

Me too I am following in Jim's footsteps, tending to a more ristretto-like cup. There are some easy guidelines to follow. Grind coarser to get more crema. Tamp harder to get longer extraction.

I always found 7 to 8 grams a bit dishy for optimum flavour. I think, that is a commercial rule of thumb to limit the expansion of coffee shops for the given cup. I have weighed my basket precisely and found, that I use 11 to 14 g, depending on the blend and roast. To extract that amount within the 25 to 30 second range, I grind it coarse and tamp it twice with about 20 kg, measured on bathroom scales. Tamping twice means stopping the grind midway, tamping, finishing to grind and tamping again. That makes for a very hard and dry puck and produces a thick, fluffy extract with chocolate and nut flavours with a hint of cinnamon and blackberry ... well, what kind of paradise you ever might imagine. Just the way I like it!

But reading your post, Italyhound, I would like to strongly point out one thing. Don't get me wrong, Italyhound. I really envy your possession. Your equipment is exactly what I wish for - AFTER 20 YEARS OF DILIGENT TRAINING MY BARISTA SKILLS WITH THE MOST SIMPLE EQUIPMENT YOU COULD THINK OF! (Not talking Krups or Saeco that is. Most simple SEMI-PROFESSIONAL equipment!) I don't say the following to offense you for your choice. As I said, there is nothing wrong with it and congratulations you have been able to get it. But I would like to point out something fundamental.

Many people think, the quality of their brew would depend on the quality of the machine they use. Wrong. The quality of the brew depends on the skills of the man behind the machine. There are no short cuts for knowledge and ability. First you have to learn about the details of espresso production as beans, roast, mill and machine. And then the procedure - how to adjust your blend to your given machinery. The key element here is understanding. Understanding, what is happening and how to react on different problems. How to find a way to extract a perfect cup with all different kinds of blends and weather situations. Did you ever recognize how subtle your grind reacts on different humidities and do you know how to react on it? That's something to learn about. And that learning process is most effectively done with simple equipment (simple SEMI-PROFESSIONAL equipment that is). Once you reached that stage, you might think about Vivaldis or Juniors or even Epocas.

I think there is a simple picture to illustrate the different stages of learning. And just as I learned it myself. First I thought: mhhh - if only I could make my cup as the italian next door (my pasta man that is). After 2 or 3 years I thought by myself: mhhhh - not too bad, not any worse than Antonio's cup next door. But couldn't it be even better? What about the coffee shop mid town? What are they doing better? Next stage. After years - MANY years I thought again: mhhhhh - should I really go out and have a cup of their burnt Yirgacheffe? No, I want a good drink - I'll have it at home. Bingo. Now I reached a stage where I think, well boy, it's time for a new machine. Got my point?

As I said: no offense to anyone, who has the chance to put his hands on such lovely machines as quoted. It's all on
basic principles to help espresso lovers to find their way to an acceptable brew and to know what to look for.
Happy x-mas days to you,
Vincent
(who longs so badly for a Vivaldi II and a Mazzer Maxi)

Vincent Kluwe-Yorck wrote:Me too I am following in Jim's footsteps, tending to a more ristretto-like cup. There are some easy guidelines to follow. Grind coarser to get more crema. Tamp harder to get longer extraction.

This thread is already all over the map, so I hope you won't mind some disagreement on these guidelines. My rule of thumb: grind coarser if the pour is too slow (significantly over 30 seconds), grind finer if it's too fast (significantly under 25 seconds). Crema simply isn't an issue if you're using freshly roasted, freshly ground coffee.

Vincent Kluwe-Yorck wrote:Many people think, the quality of their brew would depend on the quality of the machine they use. Wrong. The quality of the brew depends on the skills of the man behind the machine. There are no short cuts for knowledge and ability.

Agreed. You need to develop the barista skills regardless of your equipment. It may be easier to produce consistently good espresso on a pricier machine, but crappy technique will get you a crappy espresso on anything.

However, if someone has the desire and wherewithal to purchase top-flight equipment early in their espresso journey, what's wrong with that? Most people go through a series of upgrades due to sticker shock. Relatively few are willing to drop thousands of dollars on their first espresso machine and grinder. It generally takes some time to develop that degree of insanity.
________
John

My rule of thumb: grind coarser if the pour is too slow.

Correct, John. I was talking more about the fine tuning process, where varying the tamp helps a lot.

However, if someone has the desire and wherewithal to purchase top-flight equipment early in their espresso journey, what's wrong with that? Most people go through a series of upgrades due to sticker shock. Relatively few are willing to drop thousands of dollars on their first espresso machine and grinder. It generally takes some time to develop that degree of insanity.

Accepted again, John. But you know, there is a lot of tech geeks out there who think, that all they have to do is buy a new machine. My point goes more in that direction.

Vincent Kluwe-Yorck wrote:But reading your post, Italyhound, I would like to strongly point out one thing. Don't get me wrong, Italyhound. I really envy your possession. Your equipment is exactly what I wish for - AFTER 20 YEARS OF DILIGENT TRAINING MY BARISTA SKILLS WITH THE MOST SIMPLE EQUIPMENT YOU COULD THINK OF! (Not talking Krups or Saeco that is. Most simple SEMI-PROFESSIONAL equipment!) I don't say the following to offense you for your choice. As I said, there is nothing wrong with it and congratulations you have been able to get it. But I would like to point out something fundamental.

Many people think, the quality of their brew would depend on the quality of the machine they use. Wrong. The quality of the brew depends on the skills of the man behind the machine. There are no short cuts for knowledge and ability. First you have to learn about the details of espresso production as beans, roast, mill and machine. And then the procedure - how to adjust your blend to your given machinery. The key element here is understanding. Understanding, what is happening and how to react on different problems. How to find a way to extract a perfect cup with all different kinds of blends and weather situations. Did you ever recognize how subtle your grind reacts on different humidities and do you know how to react on it? That's something to learn about. And that learning process is most effectively done with simple equipment (simple SEMI-PROFESSIONAL equipment that is). Once you reached that stage, you might think about Vivaldis or Juniors or even Epocas.

I think there is a simple picture to illustrate the different stages of learning. And just as I learned it myself. First I thought: mhhh - if only I could make my cup as the italian next door (my pasta man that is). After 2 or 3 years I thought by myself: mhhhh - not too bad, not any worse than Antonio's cup next door. But couldn't it be even better? What about the coffee shop mid town? What are they doing better? Next stage. After years - MANY years I thought again: mhhhhh - should I really go out and have a cup of their burnt Yirgacheffe? No, I want a good drink - I'll have it at home. Bingo. Now I reached a stage where I think, well boy, it's time for a new machine. Got my point?

As I said: no offense to anyone, who has the chance to put his hands on such lovely machines as quoted. It's all on
basic principles to help espresso lovers to find their way to an acceptable brew and to know what to look for.
Happy x-mas days to you,
Vincent
(who longs so badly for a Vivaldi II and a Mazzer Maxi)

Ah Vincent, there is certainly no offense taken and you are 100% correct. I knew before my purchase that the answer is not in the machine but in the man. With the V2 as my first (and last hopefully) machine, I may not realize that what may be a variable for others is a given for me. I imagine starting small and upgrading over time makes one a better barista. Whether you start out on a shiny chrome bicycle or a rusty klunker, you still have to learn to ride on two wheels. I expect to find myself on my butt most of the time for a while.

Relatively few are willing to drop thousands of dollars on their first espresso machine and grinder. It generally takes some time to develop that degree of insanity. Smile

Time to insanity is inversely proportional to the number of young kids in your house. I was fast tracked

Oh brother in mind! I wished, I could come along and have you doing a demonstration of your S1 for me!

The espresso guide was already long, so I may have been a bit too compressed on dosing shots. Here's some clarification; and then some opinions with which many will disagree (heck, I'll probably disagree with myself by tomorrow).

The clarification: Imagine for a moment you randomly select dosage, grind, and shot times or volumes; limiting yourself only to what will fit in the basket and group, doing this thousands of times. Now imagine something impossible, that hundreds of competent judges (very tiny judges) can taste each shot and grade it. If you put all this data together, you'd have a taste map that covers all the variations in barista variables. The implicit question is if there are zones in this map where everyone hates the shots, where everyone loves the shots, and where these competent judges disagree.

Now the opinions: I have fairly definite views on how this taste map would look; I'll list them as a procedure:

1. No matter what the coffee, group, basket, or grind, one should stop at the same color every time for best results. This will result in fast shots with large volumes for coarse grinds, slow shots with small volumes for fine grinds.

2. Once you have the stop color engraved on your brain, then for a given basket in a given group for a given blend, there's a fairly optimum dose, no matter what the grind. Going outside this dose doesn't get different shots, just worse ones. This determines the dose.

3. Given you have the dose, most people will prefer 1.5 to 2 ounce doubles (or 0.75 to 1 ounce singles) for most coffees. This determines the grind setting.

4. Given you have the stop color, dose, and grind; tamping is fairly irrelevant - the technical issue is assuring the coffee is uniformly distributed in the puck and the edges are sealed - tamping can help in this, but isn't strictly necessary.

I would see most people agree with point 2, that a majority agree with 1 and 3, and that 4 is a minority point of view.