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A paper on Espresso Extraction - Page 4

Postby danblev on Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:06 pm

Thanks Jim!

I have to confess that after reading this paper I see the light.

Smooth and well balanced espresso from a roast stopped just before second crack.
--
Danny
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Postby another_jim on Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:19 am

Thanks for the praise.

However, my take is that the predominant opinion so far is that it's a useful tool for doing light SOs; but for normal espresso, the ding on body is too much.

Of course, I haven't begun to design and roast espresso blends for this technique yet :wink:
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Postby appa on Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:18 am

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your time and effort in this reseach.

I have a couple of questions from a newbie perspective

1) you mention in your article that
"
In properly brewed coffee, about 18% to 22% of the ground coffee is dissolved into the water, while the rest is spent grounds; the range in espresso shots is wider, running from 15% to 25%
"


Is the distribution of solubles different in regular coffee different than in espresso (more or less heavy compounds,etc). I was under the impression that the solubles yield for espresso would be much higher cos the high pressure, etc.

2) How important is coffee freshness now considering the italian model of espresso making you mention in the conclusion?


Thanks again
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Postby another_jim on Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:01 am

appa wrote:Is the distribution of solubles different in regular coffee different than in espresso (more or less heavy compounds,etc). I was under the impression that the solubles yield for espresso would be much higher cos the high pressure, etc.


The conventional wisdom before I did this paper was that a properly drawn espresso shot would be around 20% solubles yield. This was especially true if the shot was stopped at the proper point, when the color blonded. I believed this and stated it in my article on espresso on this site. I, and the conventional wisdom, were wrong. "Underextracted" and "overextracted" are judgement terms. When Abe was visiting me, he consistently preferred shots dosed around 1/2 to 1 gram higher than my favorite level, with extraction levels roughly 2% percent less. This was of very light (ultra-North Italian) roasts. Abe enjoyed the extra aromatics and flavor, while I preferred a little extra caramel. We both agreed how the taste change, but didn't agree on where the best balance was to be found.

2) How important is coffee freshness now considering the italian model of espresso making you mention in the conclusion?


I don't care how stale coffee extracts -- all the results I've quoted for my experiments and for brewing coffee are using very fresh coffee. The results given in academic papers on espresso do not mention how old the coffee was, or how it was preserved.

My intent in the conclusion was that the Italians, like almost all people, are not fussy about fresh coffee, so they could use dosers to precisely dose any weight of coffee they wanted. For people who are fussy about fresh coffee, dosing different weights does present a problem. Solving this problem by using 18 instead of 14 gram doses had the consequence, I think somewhat pernicious, of lowering the solubles extraction.

Thanks for pointing this ambiguity out. If an intelligent reader who has the courtesy to read something all the way through, misreads a point, the fault lies with the author's writing. I'll rewrite to make it clearer.
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Postby appa on Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:55 pm

Thanks again Jim,

I dont think this is ambiguity on your part as much as the actual audience
reading the paper may be larger than the intended target audience, but I think this
is a good thing for you
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Postby Martin on Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:53 pm

appa wrote: <<<snips>>>>
the actual audience . . .
reading the paper may be larger than the target . . .


I agree with this observation, but with some reservations. The actual audience may "get" more than what meets the eye in this thread. An interesting case in point can be found in this exchange on the La Spaziale users forum (I can't recall if you need to register to get in). Several of us are sharing some experiences on how Jim's findings are helping make sense of our experiences with the very wonderful, if idiosyncratic, La Spaz Vivaldi.

http://www.rimpo.org/wforum/viewtopic.php?p=2965#2965

I'd be interested in hearing from folks on this forum who have altered their shot-pulling practice and their thinking in response to Jim's article.

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Postby appa on Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:50 pm

Since reading the paper, i bought a scale and started downdosing,
until i was getting good consistent, doubles with only 14 grams.
Before I was probably dosing with 20 grams, with at least a few grams being flicked away
as excess. Knowing that now im getting the most bang for the buck is encouraging

Im still not sure if a finer grind with a smaller dose is more forgiving as far as technique goes,
since my technique still needs help,(holding off on WDT for now). My main challenge
now is that sometimes the coffee is way below the portafilter rim, making distribution a bit
of a challenge, it may be time to go to those curved swipers mentioned in the article...
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Postby appa on Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:11 pm

Forgot to add 2 more points:

1) now that Im down-dosing, my grind settings are much closer
to my mazzer mini's "zero-point", Coincidence? now Im thinking not,

2)my experience with the mazzer, and Martin's comments and thread above make
me wonder if Italian machines are "optimized" for a lower dosed, finder grind scenario.
Forgive me if this sounds ridiculous, I dont know much of the internals of machine design.
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Postby another_jim on Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:22 pm

One of the things people got which wasn't in the article was that headspace is a good thing on most machines. This is not about the depth of the puck per se, but how much room is left over it. There's two effects.
-- On many machines, the puck touching the shower screen degrades the taste, so these machines have a minimum headspace, or a maximum dose for each basket, depending on its depth.
-- More headroom makes for longer dwell times (it takes longer for that space to fill up, and the puck can swell more). Longer dwell times generally allow wider latitude on leveling and tamping.

In terms of the paper's thesis, that solubles yield, controlled by varying the dose weight to filter area ratio, systematically changes the taste, this is a confounding variable. I'd need variable height baskets each with the same hole area to get around it.
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Postby Martin on Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:00 pm

another_jim wrote: (it takes longer for that space to fill up, and the puck can swell more. Longer dwell times generally allow wider latitude on levelling and tamping.

This sounds relevant to arguments for or against pre-infusion. But how? Seems likely that the smaller diameter basket and relatively greater headroom on the La Spaz (at my current 15g) would factor into the machine not pre-infusing; or possibly its a reason for a machine like the Tea going with pre-infusion.
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