Hello, New owner of Giotto Premium Plus and Super Jolly. Unit came with 2.2 lbs of coffee. More on that later. I have read all the posts for the last 6 months and I thought I would have a good grasp on my machine when I was able to purchase. Well 2.2 lbs later and out of coffee espresso still tastes bitter. Here is some issues that I have encountered.

1. To get 14 grams in my double pf and tamp to 30lbs I have trouble getting the filter to sit. Increasing the grind produces a very low volume shot...... So

2. At about 12 to 13 grams I can get a 2oz pull in 25 seconds but the taste is very bitter with weak watery crema.

3. I am new to the espresso world. I am measuring my doses on a scale. I have also used a spoon to taste and various stages during the pull and I have never tasted anything that resembled sweet or even just not bitter at any stage.

I am beginning to believe the free coffee that came with the unit might have been old?? It was Lavazza Tierra and I looked all over the bag and couldn't find a roast date...So I am not sure if this is it. Last night I ordered Red Bird espresso as the reviews on this seem high. Not sure if that matters at this stage in my endeavor.

4. I am pulling about a 2oz cooling flush and then waiting about 25 to 30 seconds before pulling the shot. The most tolerable shot was 13grams, 25sec 2oz. I have the Grinder set 2 clicks to the course side of the Arrow not sure if that will help anyone.

Any Ideas?? or Suggestions......

Is this machine new? Is it a Rocket Giotto? Is the SJ new?

If we have three yes's, set your boiler pressure to 1.10 bar maximum reading on a fully warmed up machine, buy some beans from that Lost Dog cafe you recommended, flush four ounces and go.

You could shoot for 30-32 grams of beverage with 15-16 grams of these new beans and play from there.

Machine new Yes
SJ New Yes
Rocket Giotto yes

Adjust to 1.2 bar. Wouldn't that give me a higher temp and a more bitter taste profile??

Well, the only reason I say 1.10 is the prodigious steaming power of this particular machine. It takes a couple of months to "learn" a machine, so take it slow. Yes, higher boiler pressures with a given flush will produce higher temps but that can be adjusted with the flush amount.

A couple of thoughts: first and foremost, bitter flavors (at least unpleasant bitter flavors) usually come from extracting at too high a temperature. The cooling flush on every machine model is going to be a little bit different, but 2 oz sounds very low. Instead of measuring your flush dose and going by that, flush till boiling water stops coming out of the grouphead (and read the excellent guide on heat management in hx machines on the how-to page if you havent already,) and then a couple seconds more. When in doubt, I have found it best to err on the side of slightly cooler water, since the temperature range seems a lot more forgiving in that direction. That ought to solve your bitterness problem.

As far as espresso is concerned, find yourself a local source that sells with a roast date. Red bird is fantastic to play around with once you get the hang of your machine, but that might take a while (or a lifetime depending on your standards,) and your best bet for getting there is to use a consistent roast that is fairly fresh (try and buy at 3 days old and use it before it is 7-10 days old.)

For your grinder adjustment, every Mazzer unit come a little different. The adjustment depends on many, many factors. Find yourself a consistent dosing and tamping procedure and use only grinder adjustment to change your shot length. What grind you need depends partially on the weather and the age of the beans, so expect to make slight adjustments every day.

Best of luck!

Thanks for the replies. I am going to try a lot longer flushing routine. Work is going to be a little crazy the next few day's I will be back at it on Friday. I will keep you guys posted. Truly appreciate the help.

Toss that coffee in the garden. Order yourself a fresh batch from a good roaster. The List of our favorite Roasters thread would a good place to start. Once you have some good beans, you can start dialing in the machine.

I have basically the same machine (Evoluzione version) and have had some of the same trouble you have. The double basket that comes with the Rocket is a razors edge balancing act for me... too much coffee, it hits the screen. Too little coffee and my 58mm tamper can't compact the coffee enough because of the slope of the basket.

I have no problems at all however with a 21 gram basket and a Rocket naked portafilter. I fill it to just above the rim, WDT, tamp and go... never have to worry about it hitting the shower screen. And tamping is not an issue since the sides are straight.

Anyway, you may want to give the 21 gram basket and naked portafliter thing a try.... especially since so many roasters are recommending higher dosing than the traditional 14 grams.

Well to prove there is no shame in my game and the thought that my mistakes might help another. Here goes...I had enough coffee for what turned out to be 5 pucks worth. Ahhhhh wait for it........Like I said complete new setup even the scale. Wait for it.....Somewhere along the way my scale triton t2 switched from Grams to troy ounces. With that figured out I actually made two palatable shots. They were not great and i extended the flush and 14grams fits in the portafilter with plenty of room to spare. I stopped the timer at 25 seconds with exactly two oz. As far as the bottomless portafilter it was included with the machine but was out of stock when shipped. I should have it sometime next week. Since 14g does not spill over and is below the rim the over fill and swipe doesn't quite work. So my question is how do you partially fill a portafilter since you can't swipe of the extra with your finger and quickly get a level puck before tamping. Do I increase the gind and compensate with a harder tamp? Or try to evenly fill to 14g and then tamp is there a correct way?? My coffee from red bird will be here friday. Thanks for the advice so far..I am kicking myself right now. I believe the scale must have been mistakenly switched to troy ounces well into my first attempts. I have been studying this message board for months and was utterly disappointed with my complete failure. Step one from now on is to check scale to be sure it is on grams. Hope you all enjoy the story.

The double basket that comes with the Rocket is a razors edge balancing act for me... too much coffee, it hits the screen. Too little coffee and my 58mm tamper can't compact the coffee enough because of the slope of the basket.

+1. Yup, ditch the stock double basket and get a double and triple ridgeless from La Marzocco or Synesso. That eliminates issues with a 58mm tamper and bad tamps.

Since 14g does not spill over and is below the rim the over fill and swipe doesn't quite work. So my question is how do you partially fill a portafilter since you can't swipe of the extra with your finger and quickly get a level puck before tamping

Fill to 14g if that is the dose you want to try and use an unfolded paperclip or something similar to stir and even out the grinds in the basket (see WDT threads). You can then tamp that down. You could also add some nutating prior to the tamp (see threads on nutation).

I have a Rocket and find that if you adopt a flush and wait routine (that is flush past the flash boil then grind, tamp and pull) you might get on the high side of temperature and get bitter shots. I prefer to flush and go with this machine (prepare your basket beforehand, then flush past the flash boil and pull right away).

Seeing the flash boil is easier on this machine if you have a naked portafilter or even if you are looking at the exposed dispersion screen. You will hear it better too (hiss). That's my opinion anyway. My pstat is set at 0.8-1.0 bar, factory setting.

With a synesso or LM double basket and this machine you can easily pack 18-19 grams. I only use the triple when going really big like 21-23 grams.

This machine likes some free room above the puck. If you pack it too much it will tend to channel.