I'm a new Silvia / Rocky owner looking for some feedback on my progress thus far. My espresso experience is zero, but I think I've done a fair amount of homework (although if I'd read more sooner, I"d have bought a different grinder). I've read the Home Barista's Guide to Espresso by Schulman multiple times. I've read the Silvia instruction manual by 1st Line a couple times. I've practiced 30 lbs of tamping pressure a ton of times on a scale. I have a timer, I've been weighing my doses to the gram, I extract into a glass measuring cup. I've let the machine warm up for an hour or more. I'm using a naked porta-filter. Here is a sample of my results:

1. 3 oz, 19 seconds, 18g dose. Wet puck. Good stream from the naked.
2. 3 oz, 21 seconds. 18g dose. Wet puck. Good stream from the naked.
3. 2 oz, 14 seconds. 18g dose. Wet puck. Good stream from the naked.
4. 2 oz, 13 seconds. 18g dose. Starting to notice screw impression in the puck.
5. 2 oz, 14 seconds. 18g dose.
6. 3 oz, 18 seconds. 16g dose. Forgot to end it at 2oz. Reduced dose size, still grounds on dispersion screen and screw impression.
7. 2 oz, 18 seconds. 16g does. Reduced dose size, still grounds on dispersion screen and screw impression.

A couple other things:
1. My Rocky grinder is one notch above where I can hear the burrs grinding against each other.
2. I'm using espresso beans from star-frucks. I haven't yet tried freshly roasted beans.

The HB Guide says I should be aiming for a two ounce double in 27 seconds. The 1st Line manual says 3 oz in 18 - 23 seconds. Regardless of which is right, my extraction seems too quick. Everything I read says that if the extraction is too quick, my grind is too coarse.

My own thoughts after searching and reading the forum:
1. The wet puck is not important.
2. I'm perplexed why I see grounds on the screen and am getting a screw mark in the puck.
3. My grinder is not grinding fine enough.
4. I need to try fresh beans.
5. Although I've tried espresso in several of the touted coffee bars here in Denver (Aviano, City to City), I don't think my palate is good enough to tell whether the espresso I'm producing is any good.

Any suggestions for me? Thanks in advance.

-John

CoffeeGuy wrote:2. I'm using espresso beans from star-frucks. I haven't yet tried freshly roasted beans.

None of your date will be useful until you are using beans whose roast date you know. Find a source of decent, roast-dated, less-than-two-weeks but older than three days, beans. Preferably from someone with a bit of a reputation for roasting great espresso blends.

2. I'm perplexed why I see grounds on the screen and am getting a screw mark in the puck.

Grinds expand when they are wetted. You're initial measure, after tamping, should be that the grounds are not disturbed when you lock them in. So, lock them in a dry group, and them unlock them and look. If the puck is not disturbed, place a nickle on the puck, and lock it in again. If the nickle is impressed into the puck, you're headspace is adequate.
Also, listen to your machine as you turn off the brew switch. There is a click, and a bit of a sigh with a gurgle coming from the drip tray. This is the three-way valve releasing all the pressure on top of the puck. This means that all that pressure is running down a tube into the drip tray, and the at the puck will attempt to follow it a bit. This is why you'll have grounds on the screen, and the screw impression in the of of the puck.
Occasionally (after you find a blank portafilter basket, or one without any holes in it*) you should backflush this particular plumbing to keep it clean. To keep the dispersion screen and PF gasket clean, pull an empty group until the brew water comes out clean, and them put the pf with the empty basket in it underneath, and (without locking it in) allow the water to overflow the basket and flush these areas out. No more worries about grounds on the screen. Get a decent brush (denture brushes can work) and scrub the screen adn gasket occasionally, too. Clean machines make happier coffee!



*If you find the right sterno can, some of those press-in tin lids can do for a blank PF in a pinch.

CoffeeGuy wrote:I'm a new Silvia / Rocky owner looking for some feedback.... I've done a fair amount of homework ... I'm using espresso beans from star-frucks. I haven't yet tried freshly roasted beans.

Espresso is made up of coffee beans and water. Water has no taste. Do the math.


As long as you use second class beans you will be jousting at windmills.

Read my "How To" #12 on my website.

CoffeeGuy wrote:I haven't yet tried freshly roasted beans.

Until you do, attempts at diagnosis are pointless. Order some beginner-friendly coffee and please don't post your results until you've gone through at least two pounds. Seriously. In addition to Randy's How-to, the FAQs and Favorites links dozens of Rancilio Silvia-specific threads that cover every issue a new owner would encounter.

Don't take all of #12 to heart. Make sure your tamp is level and don't worry about nailing 30#. Consistency is more important. You're already on a decent path, but without great coffee, it's hopeless.

I've seen more than 1 Rocky that cannot grind fine enough for espresso.
See Vibiemme Domobar Super + Rancilio Rocky = Impossible?

Your coffee should feel like :
* Turkish: a powder, like flour.
* Espresso: very fine grained, like 10x sugar
* Drip (fine grind): like fine sand
* Medium Grind (vacuum pots, fast French Press, and cupping): a tad finer than table salt
* Coarse (for slow french press): between table and kosher salt.

HB wrote:For espresso, the grounds should stick together when pinched between your fingers. If they don't, the coffee is either stale or the grind setting is too coarse. Although Jim describes the feel as "10x sugar", I would add that it should feel grainy when you rub it between your fingers. If you don't feel some grainy inconsistency, it's too fine.

cafeIKE wrote:Don't take all of #12 to heart. Make sure your tamp is level and don't worry about nailing 30#.

From #12:

"Once you have a chosen a tamper, what amount of force to use when applying it to the coffee is the next decision. I have heard stories from folks who use just only slightly more the weight of the tamper to those who recommend a "handstand" tamp where you tamp as hard as you can. Recent testing seems to indicate that anything between about fifteen pounds to about 55 pounds will yield about the same results. This is why you often hear a tamp force of 35 pounds being recommended— it is right in the middle between 15 and 55 (Although lower force tamps are often used with lever machines)..... The bottom line is that, within reason, it doesn't matter much— at least to say, of the factors over which you have direct control, tamping force probably has the smallest affect on the espresso. If you find that a specific tamp is required, particularly one that is quite high or quite low, it is possible that you are compensating for other problems. "

Maybe you should have read it before criticizing it...

Since you're in Denver, give Kaladi Brothers Coffee a try for fresh beans. Fresh beans will brew completely differently at the same grind setting you're currently using, & you may even have to coarse it up a notch or two.

Randy G. wrote:From #12:
...
Maybe you should have read it before criticizing it...

I read it every time you mention it to see if it is updated to worth referral.
[The OP specifically mentions a 30# tamp]

Specific objections :

"I could see the defect in the puck" "...examine the puck..." - Where's the "Puck Defects and How to Fix Them" link?
"Should you adjust the brew pressure or just grind finer?" - Not related.
"Are you tamping too hard or is the coffee stale?" - Not related. Tamping too hard is impossible
"That '2 in 25' rule says..." - No mention of a double
"Changing coffee is one of the easiest things to try. It is actually something you should do on a regular basis anyway." - Really. A n00b without a clue should stick with a known good coffee until they can pull consistent shots.
"There has to be some space left between the top of the coffee and the shower screen" - No there doesn't.
"Overdosing (using too much coffee) also makes a mess on the shower screen." - Updosing requires a coarser grind, results in a drier puck and less mess on the shower screen.
"TAMPING" - Hilarious

...and on and on and on. In short the page, is more confusing than it is useful. IMO, it's mostly circa 2000 Silvia / Rocky internet mythology tripe. Too many words, too little information.

BTW, when I reference your site, I post a link the specific page, as in your excellent Add Bean Temperature Monitoring to the Hottop. Making a reader wade through the rest is too unkind

cafeIKE wrote:Don't take all of #12 to heart. Make sure your tamp is level and don't worry about nailing 30#. Consistency is more important. You're already on a decent path, but without great coffee, it's hopeless.

It seems that I have to explain that a paragraph is an assemblage of sentences that all are related to one idea or thought. When you placed the two sentences, "Don't take all of #12 to heart," and, "Make sure your tamp is level and don't worry about nailing 30#," together in one paragraph, a reasonable conclusion for the reader would be that I stated the 30 pounds is critical and that you disagree with that. My response was that I did not state any specific tamping force is required which your statement implied.

The rest of your opinion of my article is not important to me, but when you imply that I have stated something which I have not, I feel I need to make the correction.

Since the OP is using Starbucks beans, all the discussion is not very productive. There is no point in discussing what kind of bandage to use when the patient has been decapitated.

Toss all your results out the window. Order yourself 3 or 4 pounds of fresh coffee. Any of the roasters listed on HB would be a good place to start. Then start all over.

Man - tough crowd on this forum. Tougher than the Harley forum I use quite a bit. Ha ha. Thanks for everyone's responses. I'll get some fresh beans and go from there.

Remember Denver's nickname, too. Boiling water does some odd things under pressure at over five thousand feet, and if you're any higher, it just gets weirder. There is a guy up there that specializes in altitude and espresso, called 'Espresso Smith'. If you can't get the thing to work at all, and you suspect that the altitude might be screwin' witcha, give Tal a call and tell him that Psyd sentcha! You'd have to be pretty up there before Silvia gets too outta hand, but if you are...

I am far from an expert but I have recently gotten the same setup as you.

I never weighed my dose but if I were to make a wild guess I would say your over dosing. I just fill my basket and use a straight edge to scrape the extra off the top. As you over dose you might be making contact with the screw and screen to the point you get channeling. I would imagine you could see that with the naked portafilter. I do believe the double basket that comes with the silvia is a 12gram basket. Now if you got a new double basket with your naked portafilter it might be a 14gram. Try a 12gram dose and see how it does.

Also make sure you get the edges well when your tamping as thats another area I can get a bit of channeling especially with the stock rancilio basket with the ridge on the side. Do you see any pits in the puck when you look at it? Unless I really grind too fine I dont get a soupy wet puck.

Good luck, once you get things set right you'll get a good/great shot 90%+ of the time.

CoffeeGuy wrote:Man - tough crowd on this forum. Tougher than the Harley forum I use quite a bit. Ha ha. Thanks for everyone's responses. I'll get some fresh beans and go from there.

The adage "be careful what you ask for" applies in spades on H-B. If you ask for espresso help, you'll get it!

CoffeeGuy wrote:Man - tough crowd on this forum. Tougher than the Harley forum I use quite a bit. Ha ha. Thanks for everyone's responses. I'll get some fresh beans and go from there.

Not really, just trying to provide some guidance to get started. I guess it would be like posting that your new Road King handles bad and you just cant get the mechanics working correctly, then mentioning that to save money you had them put 5 year old used, hard, bald tires on it.

From one newbie Silvia owner to another... I just got a slightly deeper ridgeless double basket (I guess there is no real standard to these things?) and now using the same amount of coffee, 14.2 grams, the puck no longer hits the screw even post shot. Makes cleanup easier and I know the screw isn't interferring with the shot. On the other hand I can't totally level the coffee bed via my finger swipe as I did before unless I want to try adding more coffee.

What you probably have is a 16g basket. they will work better more similarly to the 14g you used to use if you dose them according to their relative sizes.
Try 16g-16.5g, and adjust for two ounces in 15-30 sec. and see how it compared to what you have been used to.

Silvia will not forgive stale beans; unless they're fresh, she'll just hiss and gush all over the place. This I know from experience. As far as your grind, Rocky should do the job reasonably well (it does for me). My zero on Rocky, where the plates meet, seems to be around 3 also. With fresh beans, I usually start at around the zero point plus 8, so I grind at 11. I fill the basket til it's a little peaked in the middle, level it off with my finger and tap it a couple times to settle, then give a good press with the tamp, followed by a lighter press and a slight twist. Make sure you have consistent tight coverage in the basket because if you give the water an opportunity to channel it surely will. Silvia doesn't take all that long to heat up, around a half hour is enough. I send a shot through the hot water line, then hit the steam button and wait a few minutes as the machine's boiler kicks in and give it a steam shot to clear it. About half the time i do a latte, so i heat the milk before grinding. I then run a blank through the group and blow off some steam. This seems to bring the temp down to optimal for espresso. Then, lock in the portafilter and run about a 27 second shot. Don't be religious about time, use your ears and eyes. One poster mentioned listening to the machine. This to me is very good advice.